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#1
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: leon
Hey Folks |
#2
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
For starters, that's a really odd item to place in a sports-based auction. It woudln't be the right forum. Leave this sort of thing for Heritage or somesuch. Secondly, there are many Jewish people in this hobby. Personally, if such an item's presence bothered even one person, that would certainly be enough impetus for me not to run it. An item like this is a lot more "in your face" then, say, a document signed by Saddam Hussein or Hitler. Leave it be. |
#3
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: leon
thanks for the feedback...For the record we will definitely have some non sports and memorabilia stuff in our auction. I am Jewish, as most know, and do have a slightly different view than you do but lets see what others say too....if they care to? best regards |
#4
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Jon Canfield
Leon and Jodi - I take a slightly different view. Whenever items such as these are offered for sale, I often regard the item as being something of historical significance and not something meant to promote some sort of political idealism or motive. I would never condone the atrocities that happened during World War II, or in Kosovo, or in Iraq, or in the Sudan, or anywhere. But, as much as I’m sure we all would wish these events never happened, the fact remains they did, and it is part of history. Therefore, I’ve always tried to be open minded and realize that items relating to these historical events are part of history and are not intended to promote what they may have originally stood for. That being said, I also understand that items related to World War II seem to always be particularly more sensitive than others. For example, items related to segregation and slavery never seem to garner the same debate as WWII items. |
#5
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
I too look at items like that as historical artifacts, but I can see how someone could be offended. WW2 is not so far removed from history...I say pass on it because the possibility exists that someone may be offended and I'm not sure that's what you want for your very first auction. |
#6
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
Jon--And the funny part is that I have encountered more than a handful of Black people who actually collect items dealing with slavery. I don't know why they would want to be reminded of it, but hey, it's a free country. Keep in mind that I actually agree with your viewpoints on this subject, but others may be more sensitive and take issue. This world has become far too PC for my tastes, but in a matter like this, I would fully understand other viewpoints. |
#7
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Tom Daley
I honestly am suprised to hear that this is a potential consignment. I did not think this fit the profile of items that you were seeking. I think that the risk of selling something that may be potentially offensive to some and also outside of the core items you are looking to sell is not a wise move for your first auction. |
#8
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: barrysloate
Leon- absolutely no way you should accept something like that. It's in really bad taste, and you will offend many. And who is your audience for it? |
#9
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: leon
I personally absolutely disagree that it should NOT be in the auction. I will listen to my audience and not put it in. It won't be in there...... |
#10
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: CS Bolay
I'm no big-name collector, nor am I an auctioneer, so for all it may be worth, I see little issue with the item per se. If it were a hunk of brick from a death camp or something really sick, then I'd certainly not touch it. |
#11
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Andrew
Time is usually a factor, so although it's been ~63 years since the atrocities, it's still (and probably will be for a long time) a very sensitive subject for many. Offer a relic from Genghis Khan’s conquests, and you’ll probably get little pushback. In terms of tacky sports offerings, wreckage from Munson’s or Clemente’s (I don’t remember which) plane crash stands out as one of the worst in recent memory. |
#12
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Ben
I am fairly new to the vintage baseball card hobby but have been collecting military items for approximately 12 years now. I collect Civil War, WWI and WWII items (both American and German). I believe most people who collect vintage cards can understand that the helmet you are interested in selling is a piece of history. All of history has not been pleasant and I don't believe it serves anyone for us to censor which parts are remembered (through collecting) and which parts are not. I understand that some people do not understand why anyone would buy such an item and that is their right. They can simply turn to the next page or click "next" on their screen. This helmet represents a part of history that most definitely should be remembered. |
#13
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: barrysloate
Leon- you can argue that the helmet is an historic artifact, and you would be correct. But why do you need the potential fallout from a lot that might put $150 or so in your pocket? There are still holocaust survivors, there are many Jewish Americans who lost family members during the war, and you will never know what people might be saying about you and Scott behind your back. You have little to gain and a lot to lose. It isn't as if having a Nazi helmet will add a little prestige to your sale. I wouldn't touch it. |
#14
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: George Dreher
I have a few pieces of Nazi memorabilia and own some personal items that belonged to Irwin Rommel, but would probably not bid more than $100 for such an item. |
#15
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Rob D.
Leon, |
#16
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Todd Schultz
I am not Jewish, and the piece does not offend me, but then again little does. I do find it to be of questionable taste, but to each his own I guess. It would bother me, though, if any of my friends were offended, Jewish or non, and I would prefer that it not be included. |
#17
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: JimB
I would find it offensive. Let the people who like that stuff go to a Neo-Nazi auction house. If it were me, I would feel no need to be supportive in any way of something I find so offensive. If somebody else is not offended, let them sell it. |
#18
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Ben
JimB, |
#19
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: JimB
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#20
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Dan Bretta
This is exactly why an item like that should not be included in a sports auction house auction. Some people are going to have a strong reaction to it...it may be a legitimate item to some, but to others it's going to be highly offensive. Why take the risk of offending good customers? You have more to lose than to gain IMO. I don't even think it has anything to do about bending to political correctness either...it's just good business sense. |
#21
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Ben
Jim, |
#22
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Brian
If one has to ask... |
#23
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Mark Hellman
Not a good idea, Leon. |
#24
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Al Simeone
Leon, |
#25
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: leon
I feel the need to reiterate the point that this will not be in an auction of Scott's and mine. I asked the question because I am a business person with respect to the auction. It certainly wouldn't make sense after further consideration....but I did want to get some points of view. Thanks for all of the feedback and feel free to continue....it's a pretty good debate too....regards |
#26
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: JimB
Ben, |
#27
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Posted By: James Feagin
My brother collector's German WWII Nazi stuff and he was one of the few in PA. tonight to vote for Obama Seriously though, is a Nazi helmet any different than say....a Horrors of War Hitler card? As for Klan memorabilia (pictures only and pamphlets), I collect it. I have always been fascinated with the American Political Underground, their strange idealogies and the history associated with it. I abhor that idealogy, as my group is one of them that is persecuted. |
#28
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Rob Fouch
My grandfather fought in World War II and helped in the liberation of one of the concentration camps. He's 86 and still cries every time he talks about it, and he's a gruff old man with a leather exterior who's not, shall we say, the most open-minded sort of guy. But he was obviously deeply affected by what he witnessed. |
#29
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Per Rob's story, a lot of WWII German stuff, like helmets, flags and swords, was brought home by the soldiers as symbols of the Allied victory, the Axis defeat and the war as event. The American soldier didn't bring home a German helmet to promote the Nazis, just as a solder didn't bring home a red sun flag because he had fond feelings for Tojo. |
#30
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: howard rosen
I would not be offended by this helmet's inclusion in the auction. I assume the helmet was found by an Allied serviceman. As such it is a trophy of war and if I owned it I would regard it as a reminder of victory rather than an endorsment of my enemy's principles. |
#31
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Joann
I think part of the problem with this kind of thing may be that there are some people that DO collect and display these items because they support what the items stand for - the racist and supremacy views underlying the Nazi reign. I couldn't even hazard a guess at what percentage fall into this category - probably very small. |
#32
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Alan
Being Jewish, of course, I've seen this issue come up on several occasions. It's a very controversial issue & I'm not sure anyone has a good solution. |
#33
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Mark
Wow.... those last few posts really demonstrate what a thoughtful, rational and intelligent forum this is. Being of Jewish heritage (father's side) I personally do not see much harm in the sale of these items. I feel that they are of great historical significance, and are a fascinating reminder of what might have been.... a Global "wrong turn" that came so close to happening a relatively short time ago. |
#34
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Matt
The correct analogy would be between an article from the African slave trade and the nazi helmet. I would liken memorabilia from the Negro Leagues to the Diary of Anne Frank - both celebrate survival at a time of oppression. |
#35
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Jodi Birkholm
That might be one of the most perfect analogies I've heard in ages. |
#36
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Posted By: barrysloate
Yes Matt- very well articulated. |
#37
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
As a Jew who had relatives killed by the Nazis, I am not offended by the existence of the helmet -- unless it resides in the hands of someone who celebrates it or the Nazis. I think the piece has historical significance. That being said, many people are offended by such a symbol of evil and for that reason alone I'd suggest not including it in your auction. As a Jew, additionally, I would never want to make a dime off of anything relating to the Nazis. |
#38
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Posted By: Mark
That is a better analogy... and well thought out. |
#39
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: JimB
I have learned a lot reading this thread. Thank you everybody. |
#40
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Brad L.
I collect WWII related items, whether they are authentic or replicas(when I have any money which is pretty much never, lol). My opinion is sort of two fold I guess. I can definately see how someone would be offended, but I am of the opinion that there is rarely malicious intent when buying historical artifacts. If you were to accept the consignment, I would print and post, very clearly, that the sale of the item is intended for the historical value and purposes only and you are in no way sympathetic with any nazi related causes (obviously, lol). It is a sensitive issue, and in this day and age everyone has to complain about something, but I would hate to think that something of this historical significance couldn't (or wouldn't) be put up for auction because it offended someone. I'd imagine that there were many Jewish soldiers, among others, that swiped anything they could when stationed in Germany during that time. |
#41
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: paulstratton
Interesting discussion. I wouldn't be offended, but I can see why some people would find it repulsive. Confederate memorabilia(uniforms, hats, weapons, flags, etc.) sells very well and some of it brings bu-ku-bucks. J.E.B Stuart's personal battle flag sold for close to a million dollars recently and I doubt it was purchased by a Klan member or Neo-Nazi, though it could have been. More than likely it was purchased by a military collector for it's historical significance. |
#42
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: ramram
Wow! |
#43
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Posted By: Mark B.
I wouldn't see a problem with the sale of such. In fact I sold a bunch of WWII items for a friends father who had collected them as souvenirs. It raised a few thousand for them and really helped them out. |
#44
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: J Levine
Leon, |
#45
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: davidcycleback
I guess Scott won't be able to include his complete Black Sabbath album set. |
#46
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Rhett Yeakley
I tend to agree with what has been said above regarding the item in question, and have little to add to the discussion as to whether the item should or should not be included in any given auction. |
#47
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Ben
This certainly has been an interesting discussion/debate even though it has nothing to do with vintage baseball! Just thought I would add this interesting bit of history... These are regimental patches for the 45th Division of the American Army. The patch with Swastika was worn by members of that division for 15 years before its use was discontinued due to Hitler's rise to power. Just before the beginning of WW2 it was changed to the Eagle version. The swastika, and later the eagle were used on the patch because there were a significant number of Native Americans serving in the regiment. Both of these symbols have long and rich histories in Native American culture...as well as others as evidenced by Rhett's postcard! |
#48
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: davidcycleback
Hitler adopted the swastika in, I believe, 1919 and the Nazi Swastika is going clockwise and at an angle (rotate the above symbols 45 degrees to somewhat resemble a cross). A Swastika in a different style is not Nazi and anything WWI and before isn't Nazi. Most historical non-Nazi swastikas are a different style, with many going counterclockwise and a majority not tilted (the above symbols are not tilted). Swastikas have been used by the American Indians, Vikings, ancient Greeks, Indians, etc. |
#49
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: boxingcardman
I am not offended. But ask yourself whether you really want to (1) generate a "yuch" factor for some potential customers, (2) start out ranging far away from your avowed focus, and (3) begin life as an ebay-style flea market rather than a niche auction house. If yes, do it. If not, think long term business plan. |
#50
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Would you be offended?
Posted By: Ben
In response to an earlier post, the Swastika used by the Nazi party was not always tilted. It was not until the early 1930's or so that Hitler had the swastika rotated 45 degrees. Even after that point, there were certain Nazi organizations (the DAF or German Workers Front for example) that still used the earlier swastika. Also, the Nazi party was not using the Swastika in 1919. Hitler only joined the party in late 1919 (at that point it was the German Workers Party, later to become the National Socialist German Workers Party). It was used by the Nazis starting in 1920, however there were other German nationalist organizations that used it before the Nazis. |
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