Pete Rose and Shoeless Joe Jackson Reinstated by MLB

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Dunno that Jackson was better than Lajoie or Speaker who made the second class. I think his notoriety has made him perhaps greater in people's minds than his actual numbers.

162 game averages

Jackson 106 R 216 H 37 2B 20 3B 7 HR 96 RBI 25 SB .356/.423/.517 OPS+170
WAR 7.6
Collins 104 R 190 H 25 2B 11 3B 3 HR 74 RBI 42 SB .333/.424/.429 OPS+142
WAR 7.1
Lajoie 98 R 212 H 43 2B 11 3B 5 HR 104 RBI 25 SB .338/.380/.466 OPS+150
WAR 7.0

It looks pretty clear that Jackson was better than Collins and Lajoie. With the introduction of livelier balls, Jackson would have benefited with his superior power. You can say what if he was injured, but he played in independent and semi-pro leagues into the 1930s. I don't know if he should be part of the 1936 class, but he would have definitely been elected no later than 1937 if not for the Black Sox.

[robw1959]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

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We've come a long way from Bowie Kuhn, motivated by a desire to distance Major League Baseball from any trace of gambling, banned retired superstars Willie Mays and Mickey Mantle from working for both major league clubs and gambling casinos at the same time. And they were just shaking hands and kissing babies in their roles at the Casino.

The Black Sox and Joe Jackson were acquitted in a 1921 court, it was Chicago so you can't put a lot of stock in that decision but acquitted none the less. Kennesaw Mountain Landis chose to ban them to send a message to "Gambling" that baseball was off limits.

And now we have Sportsbooks in over a dozen Stadiums with more to come, owned by Fanatics, DraftKings, and FanDuel, to name a few, the same fine folks that lined the pockets of congress to change the gambling laws in this country.

MLB and Manfred have embraced gambling to the point that the ESPN commentators and play by play guys, are quoting betting lines.

It's insidious. Gambling ruins lives, families, and futures. There's a reason Kuhn and Landis took such a hard line on it.

I don't think gambling should be any part of baseball, including advertising, but if baseball is going to cozy up to the gamblers then Joe Jackson should by all means be the first voted in the Hall. Hell, they should retroactively induct him in the 1936 class and make it the first 6 instead of the first 5.

I agree wholeheartedly with all of this!

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

Hell, they should retroactively induct him in the 1936 class and make it the first 6 instead of the first 5.

Joe was already on the ballot, receiving 2 votes in 1936. And then 2 more in 1946.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by sbfinley

I’ve never understood the argument that MLB accepting advertising dollars from Gaming Companies somehow makes gambling within the sport a lesser offense. It’s pretty simple, every major sports entity both professional and amateur forbids sports wagering and the cardinal sin is beating on your own sport/team. It’s not an ethical dilemma without an answer. My company accepts advertising dollars from Liquor and Beer companies, that shouldn’t somehow morally protect me from action if I’m drinking on the job. I wouldn’t somehow be in some deep ethos predicament if Jeff in accounting was fired for pounding airplane bottles of Tito’s all day long just because we advertise InBev corp.

So should we assume that accepting those ads from liquor and beer companies can be seen as compromising your company's integrity? Because that's certainly the situation with MLB cozying up to the gambling industry.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Blunder19

What is everyone's thoughts here....

Well since you really want to know....

Originally Posted by Blunder19

Both are now HOF eligible. Good news for those who have their rookie cards....

A pox on all those whose main interest in their rookie cards is profiting from them.

[darwinbulldog]

I believe Pete Rose was guilty of far greater crimes than betting on baseball.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe Pete Rose was guilty of far greater crimes than betting on baseball.

Back in the day such things, I don't think, were viewed as seriously, particularly if a famous athlete was involved.

[Brent G.]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back in the day such things, I don't think, were viewed as seriously, particularly if a famous athlete was involved.

Yeah we all like to say how great things were back in the day, but the level of shielding female high schoolers from older predatory males was not one of those things. Pete could’ve been Wander Franco … except Franco was much younger.

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by darwinbulldog

I believe Pete Rose was guilty of far greater crimes than betting on baseball.

"Crimes"? Don't be silly.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Back in the day such things, I don't think, were viewed as seriously, particularly if a famous athlete was involved.

Which is why sexual mores including age of consent vary over time and across both cultures and jurisdiction. They're not by any means universal laws such as "Thou shalt not kill/steal etc."

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

"Crimes"? Don't be silly.

Well, he's a convicted felon for tax evasion, for one.

[bk400]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

"Crimes"? Don't be silly.



Which is why sexual mores including age of consent vary over time and across both cultures and jurisdiction. They're not by any means universal laws such as "Thou shalt not kill/steal etc."

I dunno, man. Maybe I'm a prude and a cultural philistine, but when you're a married 34 year old with kids and are accused of statutory rape -- and your best defense is (i) that the sex only started when the girl was 16 and (ii) the sex only occurred in a state where the age of consent happens to be 16 -- you're basically a douchebag. If they elect guys like this -- who were also banned for betting on baseball and convicted of tax evasion -- in the Hall of Fame, then they should also elect guys like Dale Murphy into the Hall.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Still another 6 hours to go for 5/13/25 and already 30 - 1963 Topps Pete Rose rookie cards sold on eBay today. This compares to the typical 1-2 daily. At least this time nobody died but how crazy/sick are we collectors? And these are all 4-figure cards, not everyone can afford one.

[theshowandme]

First 13 seasons for each




You can use this query to look at the head to head in more detail

https://stathead.com/tiny/YXK9L

[theshowandme]

Send the asteroid

[B O'Brien]

O damn, this looks like a disaster! I’m glad I kept my Memory Lane popcorn.

Weirdly anticipating reading to see what happened here. I haven’t seen that many quote boxes in a long time.

Me: Joe in, Pete no, but a hit leader plaque.

Happy Friday,
Bob

[BioCRN]

Originally Posted by B O'Brien

O damn, this looks like a disaster! I’m glad I kept my Memory Lane popcorn.

Just a normal ol' HOF discussion going on. Nothing controversial at all. Everyone is having a fun ol' time. Yup. ...sigh. Phew...baseball cards are fun.

[AMPduppp]

Since every thread needs a card, and I believe this one is still missing one, here’s a good summary of what it’s like to read through this trainwreck

[bk400]

There's an Apple TV documentary series about Magic Johnson out right now. It is really well done, in my humble opinion.

Anyway, it brings back memories of what Magic did in the wake of his HIV diagnosis and how, also in my humble opinion, he was a hero when it came to de-stigmatizing the disease and focusing resources and attention on helping people live normal lives with the disease.

Magic clearly wasn't a saint, but he not only admitted it, but he made it a mission to have some good come out of the negative consequences of his lifestyle choices.

Imagine if Pete Rose used his platform in the wake of his being banned by baseball to educate people about problem gambling. Instead, he focused on excusing or underplaying the seriousness of his actions. Selling autographs mocking his gambling.

If Pete Rose were like Magic, perhaps we wouldn't have gambling so intertwined with professional sports today.

And maybe, like Magic, he would have been embraced by society at large, as opposed to being a polarizing figure up to and beyond his death.

[Blunder19]

Originally Posted by B O'Brien

O damn, this looks like a disaster! I’m glad I kept my Memory Lane popcorn.

Happy Friday,
Bob

Hahaha this made me laugh !