Most undervalued HOFers

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Baseball Reference ranks Cy Young the second best pitcher of all time but I would not choose him over Nolan Ryan either.

Well I respect everyone's opinion, but that is really pushing it.

Fine, I would take Ichiro over Cobb. Bryce Harper over Ruth. Kiki Hernandez over Joe Morgan.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Well I respect everyone's opinion, but that is really pushing it.

Fine, I would take Ichiro over Cobb. Bryce Harper over Ruth. Kiki Hernandez over Joe Morgan.

Well, you see, once someone rejects the concepts of both math and language, any and every statement can be said to be true.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by G1911

Well, you see, once someone rejects the concepts of both math and language, any and every statement can be said to be true.

I feel like I'm in a Kafka novel or something. Someone's ranking of pitchers does not imply that that someone would take the higher ranked one over the lower ranked one. Now, you are a housepainter?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel like I'm in a Kafka novel or something. Someone's ranking of pitchers does not imply that that someone would take the higher ranked one over the lower ranked one. Now, you are a housepainter?

It does not count, because how we do know Bill James is a person on Earth and not a space cyborg pretending to be a person?

Great novella.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Well damn, some earthlings who would take Perry over Ryan.

https://www.threads.net/@johnjames21...inumxYoE?hl=en

I bet there are a lot of such earthlings.

[packs]

Why haven’t you guys said you would choose Perry over Ryan?

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Why haven’t you guys said you would choose Perry over Ryan?

Because it's not my claim, my claim for the 10,000th time is that Perry and Ryan are different types of pitchers who produced pretty similar values. I know you guys would like easier things to argue against because this statement is, for mysterious reasons, quite upsetting to several people but none of you can think of an actual argument against it, but I am not interested in changing my claim.

My subsequent claim is that your claim that no one on Earth would select Perry over Ryan is demonstrably false, and that you trying to pretend James does not count because you don't like that is both really funny and completely disconnected from reality.

[packs]

I was talking about a theoretical situation where two guys are going to have similar careers who would you choose: the junk specialist or Nolan Ryan. And I said no one would choose the junk specialist. You won’t even say you would.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Why haven’t you guys said you would choose Perry over Ryan?

I think it's a pretty close call that reasonably could go either way, which is the whole point.

[JollyElm]

Some thoughts on the subject...

Baseball fandom IS emotion. You can’t possibly quantify what makes a player so beloved that his cards are ‘overvalued.’


With Nolan Ryan, there’s a truckload of reasons for the adoration and here are a base (pun intended) few:

• Miracle Mets
He started his career as a Met, in the huge New York market, and was part of their 1969 championship, which for the longest time (perhaps still?) was the greatest World Series victory ever. That cast a long shadow that still follows him to this day. We Mets fans are nutjobs. His “Folo card” (first solo) is from that 1969 championship year (which intangibly adds to its value) and is highly sought after everywhere you go.

• Multigenerational
Some players lasted long enough that fathers and sons both were able to cheer for them in their younger days, but it’s a very rare event when someone is multi-multigenerational (probably not a word). Grandfathers, their sons, and their grandchildren all could’ve been actively rooting for Ryan in their times. He played on and on and on, and never seemed to lose his...

• Fastball
Like power hitters and their monster home runs, so is a blazing fastball strikeout to a pitcher. You want him to 'K' the batter, and the bigger the name of the hitter, the better. Ryan was perceived as throwing the ball faster than any human being alive ever. No way to quantify that, of course, but that’s what fans thought every time he took the mound.

But even the word "fast" doesn’t really cover it. He threw super hard, which is a word that combines blazing velocity with stopping power. You'd think anyone stepping into the batter's box would feel intimidated and backed into a corner facing him. They'd have to keep their front foot at the ready for a quick bail out, all the while thinking, "If he hits me, I'm dead!!!"

• Silent Warrior
His approach to the game is something that should be emulated by all players these days. He went out every fourth day and did his job. There was no showboating or look-at-me-ism. If he was able to pitch, he went out and pitched. We all remember when his no-hitter and Rickey Henderson’s record-breaking stolen base occurred on the same day. Rickey declared himself “the greatest,” and Nolan simply smiled and doffed his cap to the crowd. That work ethic combined with modesty goes a long way, especially in a hard-working state like Texas.

[packs]

You listed a ranking not anyone who would choose Perry over Ryan. I listed a ranking that also puts Phil Niekro at 14 and Bert Blyleven at 15 all time. I would not start them over Nolan Ryan either.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

You listed a ranking not anyone who would choose Perry over Ryan. I listed a ranking that also puts Phil Niekro at 14 and Bert Blyleven at 15 all time. I would not start them over Nolan Ryan either.

What YOU would pick is utterly irrelevant to your statement.

You said, since you keep trying to pretend its something else,

Originally Posted by packs

There is no one on earth who would select Perry over Ryan.

James, in actual reality whether you like it or not, very literally did in a numbered list. He selected Perry over Ryan. Whether you agree with that choice is irrelevant to your false claim you made and refuse to walk back.

[packs]

Bill James wasn’t asked the question and his ranking isn’t taking it into consideration. Would you choose Perry over Nolan Ryan? That was the question. The hobby has not.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Bill James wasn’t asked the question and his ranking isn’t taking it into consideration. Would you choose Perry over Nolan Ryan? That was the question. The hobby has not.

All cats have paws. Rover has paws. Therefore, Rover is a cat.

[G1911]

Originally Posted by packs

Bill James wasn’t asked the question and his ranking isn’t taking it into consideration. Would you choose Perry over Nolan Ryan? That was the question. The hobby has not.

Originally Posted by packs

There is no one on earth who would select Perry over Ryan.

So James does not count as a person on Earth because... He was not asked the question. Therefore, very literally selecting Perry over Ryan does not count, because you didn't ask him.

I mean I can just lie and make stuff up all day too. Dave Stewart is the greatest pitcher of all time, and no one on Earth will say otherwise. When people prove that wrong, I'll just pretend these people do not count as people on Earth. Man, it sure is easier when I can just completely disconnect from discernible reality and lie.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

Bill James wasn’t asked the question and his ranking isn’t taking it into consideration. Would you choose Perry over Nolan Ryan? That was the question. The hobby has not.

The answer to that, and any other comparative question, is inherent in a ranking.