Mantle vs. Clemente

[bcbgcbrcb]

Can someone tell me how this Clemente card gets an SGC 2 and the Mantle card which I sent in to SGC a few months ago for crossover didn't make my minimum grade of a straight SGC 1? No back damage on either one. Centering on the back of the Mantle is much better than the front. Centering on the back of the Clemente is the same as the front.

[raulus]

Definitely one of life's great mysteries.

However, one thing I did notice is that the Clemente is only miscut top-bottom. Left-right, it's still OC, but not so extreme as to be miscut.

Mantle appears to be miscut both top-bottom and left-right.

At the same time, I don't see why it shouldn't get a SGC 1. Then again, I've never submitted to SGC, so know nothing about their approach.

Could just be one of those charming idiosyncrasies that endears the TPGs that much more to all of us as the collecting public.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by raulus

Definitely one of life's great mysteries.

However, one thing I did notice is that the Clemente is only miscut top-bottom. Left-right, it's still OC, but not so extreme as to be miscut.

Mantle appears to be miscut both top-bottom and left-right.

At the same time, I don't see why it shouldn't get a SGC 1. Then again, I've never submitted to SGC, so know nothing about their approach.

Could just be one of those charming idiosyncrasies that endears the TPGs that much more to all of us as the collecting public.

Yeah, you can only see two of the Mantle's borders, and you can see 3 of Clemente's.

Clemente's corners are much sharper too.

[Exhibitman]

Trying to figure out this sort of stuff is like trying to reason with a barnyard animal.

[oldjudge]

Both horribly centered but the Clemente has better corners

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by oldjudge

Both horribly centered but the Clemente has better corners

+1

[bcbgcbrcb]

Maybe I didn’t explain my question clearly enough. I agree with everyone that the Clemente card is in better condition than the Mantle card. I want to know what justification that SGC has for the unwillingness to give the Mantle card a numerical grade at all. It’s not as far off-center on any border as the Clemente.

In my opinion, if I submit that Clemente to either PSA or SGC, it comes back unholdered by both because it is miscut too badly. I would love to know who the submitter was to SGC on that Clemente card. My guess is that it’s a major one. Otherwise, SGC is 1,000% dead wrong for not crossing my Mantle card to at least a 1. In my opinion, should be more like a 1.5 or 2 but giving it the benefit of the doubt here.

[raulus]

Show us the backs, please.

[perezfan]

Don't try to apply reason. It just illustrates the random nature of third party grading. You are completely at the whim of which grader reviews it, and their frame of mind that day.

Maybe the Mantle grader had hemorrhoids or failed to perform sexually that morning. Maybe the Clemente grader made all of the green lights on his way to work and got the best parking spot in the SGC lot.

The more you try to apply reason, the more frustrated you'll become. Bottom line... the 3rd party concept is flawed and was created to benefit them (not you).

[FrankWakefield]

+1 for what Adam said; and +1 for what Jay said.

I suspect that Adam grew up in a city, near concrete. From rural America, I offer some barnyard wisdom... "It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it's a waste of time and it annoys hell outa the pig."

[The Detroit Collector]

My guess would be even though the cards are severely off center, the white borders they do have are SO thick, much thicker than an actual border, which compensates for some of the missing border. The thick borders put the card back into the needed HxW dimensions which would allow it a numerical grade rather than authentic.

Again, just my guess.

[glynparson]

Are you positive the edge near the label has a factory cut? It looks a little odd If sgc felt it wasn’t a full factory cut card and PSA didn’t feel the same way it would explain everything logically

[Scocs]

Isn’t the Mantle card technically “worth” more money in a PSA holder anyway? Why crossover to SGC? Just to get rid of the MC on the label? Anyone can see it’s miscut….

[swarmee]

Does the card measure up? Just because it got into a PSA slab doesn't mean it's the right size for the issue. That would be a reason why the card wouldn't get a number grade from SGC.

Was it pressed in a non-recessed brick holder at some point?

Does it show some other sign of alteration?

[cgjackson222]

So there is no explanation of why a card doesn't get a numerical grade from SGC unless you choose to have your card slabbed Authentic? That's too bad.

I know that SGC now does show why cards grade Authentic on their slabs--e.g. trimming, not minimum size, etc.

[bbcard1]

I don't know why some of you guys keep doing this to yourselves. I can kind of understand the guys on Facebook who just don't know whether something is real or a reprint, but an experienced collector should know they are real and they aren't going to get a good grade. The Clemente should grade higher than the Mantle though. Its corners are better and it is only off center one way while the Mantle is off center on two margins.

[Steve D]

One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that the grade on the Mantle: 1.5(mc), actually makes it a -.5, since the qualifier knocks the grade down two points.

On a more serious note, one other thing I noticed is that the Mantle has a very slight color shift between the skin tones and the black border around his arm and face, and also on his cap. The Clemente on the other hand, looks well-focused.

Steve

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by FrankWakefield

+1 for what Adam said; and +1 for what Jay said.

I suspect that Adam grew up in a city, near concrete. From rural America, I offer some barnyard wisdom... "It's like trying to teach a pig to sing; it's a waste of time and it annoys hell outa the pig."

I did but I also lived every summer until I was 12 at an area country enough that our house still went by a rural route address because there was no 911 system in the area, but no farm animals. I have tried to reason with every form of human stupid, though, over 33 years of law practice, which is why I know trying to read a meaning into PSA's decisions is an exercise in futility.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by Steve D

One thing that hasn't been pointed out is that the grade on the Mantle: 1.5(mc), actually makes it a -.5, since the qualifier knocks the grade down two points.

Actually, if you read the Set Registry rules, despite the qualifier, a FAIR card (1.5) with a qualifier DOES NOT lose any registry points, so it is actually worth more than a PSA 2(Q) which does lose 1 point.

Bonus Points and Deductions
Some sets may have bonus points assigned to certain items within a set.

Additionally, the following point deductions are taken for Qualifiers. For example, if your card or ticket is graded PSA 9Q, the grade calculation in the Registry will be 7.

9Q = -2
8Q = -2
7Q = -2
6Q = -2
5Q = -2
4Q = -2
3Q = -1
2Q = -1
1Q & 1.5Q = no deduction

https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/rules

[FrankWakefield]

"every form of human stupid" +1 !!!!!! Well said.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Actually, if you read the Set Registry rules, despite the qualifier, a FAIR card (1.5) with a qualifier DOES NOT lose any registry points, so it is actually worth more than a PSA 2(Q) which does lose 1 point.


https://www.psacard.com/psasetregistry/rules

I didn't realize that.....Thank you!

Steve

[bcbgcbrcb]

Anyone understand PSA’s grade? Aside from the centering/miscut part of the card’s assessment, edges, corners and surface all look to be VG or better. By PSA using the MC qualifier (which drastically lowers the card value by itself) isn’t that enough of a penalty to the card grade without also allowing the centering/miscut issue to downgrade the numerical grade as well? Seems like I’m being double penalized for the same singular issue with the card. That’s where I find PSA at fault in addition to strongly disagreeing with SGC’s assessment as mentioned previously.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by bcbgcbrcb

Anyone understand PSA’s grade? Aside from the centering/miscut part of the card’s assessment, edges, corners and surface all look to be VG or better. By PSA using the MC qualifier (which drastically lowers the card value by itself) isn’t that enough of a penalty to the card grade without also allowing the centering/miscut issue to downgrade the numerical grade as well? Seems like I’m being double penalized for the same singular issue with the card. That’s where I find PSA at fault in addition to strongly disagreeing with SGC’s assessment as mentioned previously.

I wonder what the back looks like. Maybe there’s some damage or something going on that lowers the grade?

[swarmee]

Phil, we can't answer that question for you, because we don't have the card in hand. Does the card have a pinhole? Is that long crease along the bottom of the card?
When PSA awards a qualifier, they nearly always remove that aspect from their grading of the remainder of the card for the number grade. So IMO, the off-centeredness is not contributing to the card getting a 1.5.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Ok, I have to go to my safe deposit box at the bank tomorrow anyway. I will take more pictures of the card, including the back, and add them here tomorrow.

[bcbgcbrcb]

Here are additional pics of the Mantle card, including the back:

[swarmee]

Yeah, with those very long spider wrinkles across the back, I think it's reasonable for the grade it received from PSA. Due to the heavy print on the front, those creases were mostly obscured.

[butchie_t]

Best I can say to you is this is and will always be one of life's mysteries for ever and ever.

Best of luck and nice cards.

Butch Turner

[JeremyW]

Phil- If it were me, I'd be happy with the PSA holder.

[bcbgcbrcb]

I have yet to see a valid point that has swayed my thinking even by 1% that both PSA and SGC are wrong in their assessment of the Mantle. I guess I’ll just have to agree to disagree with them along with all on Net54 who responded. I thought that most would see my point of view here but was wrong.

[swarmee]

Did you measure the card, as I asked earlier? It's possible PSA graded it while undersize, but SGC is not willing to give it a number grade if it's factory cut short.

[The Detroit Collector]

It could be the measurement of the card; the Clemente has a little more border left to right where the Mantle has no border on the right. The little border for the Clemente could put the card in the needed minimum measurement to get a grade, where the Mantle does not meet the minimum requirement do to zero border on the right.

[bcbgcbrcb]

John:

You were 100% correct. I finally had a chance to take a closer look at the back of the actual card. A number of horizontal surface wrinkles, certainly enough to cause a 1.5 grade aside from the miscut. None of these are visible from the front of the card. I stand corrected, PSA got the grade right. SGC, not so much, these certainly do not eliminate an SGC 1 from being given, still no way that I agree with their assessment.