PWCC expands its lending activities

[Republicaninmass]

Issue is pwcc allowed shilling to pump these prices up so high even 50% of today's ltv will leave THEM holding the bag.

Its almost self fufilling they lose everything and receive pennies on the dollar after the forced sales on bad loans..

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Issue is pwcc allowed shilling to pump these prices up so high even 50% of today's ltv will leave THEM holding the bag.

Its almost self fufilling they lose everything and receive pennies on the dollar after the forced sales on bad loans..

Peter, Nic, Ryan, all excellent points, agree with everyone. If that video is even partially true, that is not a great sign for what may be happening. And Matthew, I think your point was maybe best of all. LOL

And Ted, if what you're suggesting is even partially true, that would demonstrate a level of business stupidity that is not seen very often. I had heard that 40% number before in regard to how much was supposedly going to be loaned against a card's value. But if in some cases it was actually going as high as 100% loan-to-value, that is pure insanity from a business aspect. And is especially and even more so if as you're suggesting, there may have been shilling activities involved in the realization of some of these card values used to then determine and set how much would be loaned. For a potential lender to be a party to assist in the setting of such false, overstated values, to me that would be like playing a business version of Russian roulette. From a business standpoint, you're just asking for it IMO. Should be reeaaallly interesting to see where this may end up leading to.

[Casey2296]

I'm in private equity real estate loans, it's a simple equation, collateral + risk = rate, term, and loan to value. It's an interesting model to me, no foreclosure since I already am in possession of your collateral, more like a margin call, if the price of your 48 Jackie drops below our agreement and you can't pay the delta within 30 days the card is mine, I'll auction it off and get my money back plus some since I only gave you 50 cents on the dollar. These vaults a smart to only offer 12 month terms since the market is so violate. I would guess fair market rate should be in the 12-14% range and an ltv of 50%, and that's on solid pre-war, modern? Maybe 20%. And when you add the 1% transaction fee the rate of return starts to push the ROR an additional percentage point.

I can see why hedge funds would gladly fund a line like this with that model.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm in private equity real estate loans, it's a simple equation, collateral + risk = rate, term, and loan to value. It's an interesting model to me, no foreclosure since I already am in possession of your collateral, more like a margin call, if the price of your 48 Jackie drops below our agreement and you can't pay the delta within 30 days the card is mine, I'll auction it off and get my money back plus some since I only gave you 50 cents on the dollar. These vaults a smart to only offer 12 month terms since the market is so violate. I would guess fair market rate should be in the 12-14% range and an ltv of 50%, and that's on solid pre-war, modern? Maybe 20%. And when you add the 1% transaction fee the rate of return starts to push the ROR an additional percentage point.

I can see why hedge funds would gladly fund a line like this with that model.

I suspect that terms may vary from shop to shop, and probably over time for any given shop as they tweak their approach. But the terms I heard from PWCC are 40% LTV, 12% annual rate with a 3 month term, with 1-month extensions possible. However, they never did answer my question about who holds the option for the extension.

And I totally agree that the hedgies and private equity guys would make these loans all day long.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by raulus

I suspect that terms may vary from shop to shop, and probably over time for any given shop as they tweak their approach. But the terms I heard from PWCC are 40% LTV, 12% annual rate with a 3 month term, with 1-month extensions possible. However, they never did answer my question about who holds the option for the extension.

And I totally agree that the hedgies and private equity guys would make these loans all day long.

Your numbers makes sense, being in the business I would warn collectors to stay clear of this proposition.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Casey2296

I'm in private equity real estate loans, it's a simple equation, collateral + risk = rate, term, and loan to value. It's an interesting model to me, no foreclosure since I already am in possession of your collateral, more like a margin call, if the price of your 48 Jackie drops below our agreement and you can't pay the delta within 30 days the card is mine, I'll auction it off and get my money back plus some since I only gave you 50 cents on the dollar. These vaults a smart to only offer 12 month terms since the market is so violate. I would guess fair market rate should be in the 12-14% range and an ltv of 50%, and that's on solid pre-war, modern? Maybe 20%. And when you add the 1% transaction fee the rate of return starts to push the ROR an additional percentage point.

I can see why hedge funds would gladly fund a line like this with that model.

That is exactly what I'm thinking and saying as well. What would be really interesting to see is a copy of one of PWCC's actual loan agreements that they have with these borrowers. If they were set up and operating as you mentioned you do in your business Phil, I would initially think the lender (which would be PWCC in this case) is likely not going to end up in any tough or problematic business position at all. But, if there is any truth to this other rumor/commentary about PWCC now needing to get additional funding to cover themselves so they can continue operating, that sends out an entirely different message as to what may be happening in this case, and how it may be affecting PWCC now, and going forward. As I said before, it will be very interesting to see where this may be going.

[BobC]

And Nic's points, and Phil's comeback, again seem to be right on the money as well. The only way I'd ever think of doing something like this, and take a loan against cards I own, would be if I had a chance to acquire an item that I knew was pretty much a slam dunk steal on my part, that I could (and would) quickly flip for a profit, and pay off the loan as soon as I could.

[trambo]

I watched the clip and while there were some questions raised, to me it's nothing more than a guy spreading a rumor. Another thought or explanation could be the lending business for PWCC is so robust, they raised more capital to support that need. I have no information either way but just bringing up another possibility. I'm also not (nor ever) wearing an "I HEART PWCC" t-shirt.

As for lending against the value of cards, I'm sure there's a business there if done properly and I'd bet the returns would be very strong. Whether PWCC is on the good side of it or not isn't for me to say or even guess. I just didn't see any smoking gun w/that 5 minute clip but more a guy w/a youtube page spreading rumors for clicks. Throw some proof and it'll have much more credibility.

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by trambo

I watched the clip and while there were some questions raised, to me it's nothing more than a guy spreading a rumor. Another thought or explanation could be the lending business for PWCC is so robust, they raised more capital to support that need. I have no information either way but just bringing up another possibility. I'm also not (nor ever) wearing an "I HEART PWCC" t-shirt.

As for lending against the value of cards, I'm sure there's a business there if done properly and I'd bet the returns would be very strong. Whether PWCC is on the good side of it or not isn't for me to say or even guess. I just didn't see any smoking gun w/that 5 minute clip but more a guy w/a youtube page spreading rumors for clicks. Throw some proof and it'll have much more credibility.

I tend to believe it's never as good as it seems and it's never as bad as it seems. Extreme's belief's on either end draw the hype and attention on social media... I tend to think it's somewhere in between. That's being said if you fail to do your own homework prior to engaging you may be setting yourself up for not so pleasant results. The homework I've done on PWCC has informed me enough to never use or consider to use their platform.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by trambo

I watched the clip and while there were some questions raised, to me it's nothing more than a guy spreading a rumor. Another thought or explanation could be the lending business for PWCC is so robust, they raised more capital to support that need. I have no information either way but just bringing up another possibility. I'm also not (nor ever) wearing an "I HEART PWCC" t-shirt.

As for lending against the value of cards, I'm sure there's a business there if done properly and I'd bet the returns would be very strong. Whether PWCC is on the good side of it or not isn't for me to say or even guess. I just didn't see any smoking gun w/that 5 minute clip but more a guy w/a youtube page spreading rumors for clicks. Throw some proof and it'll have much more credibility.

Very, very true, Troy. And exactly why I was saying IF these rumors/comments have any truth to them. We'll just have to wait and see if anything else starts coming out about this.

[MBMiller25]

I use PWCC to vault my cards and I use them probably 2-3 times a year to sell off cards for me so that I can buy other cards I want. I know this board is not a huge fan of them and some of the things they have done in the past, and thats fine. To debate the merits of them as company is not the point of the response. I wanted to respond only to provide some factual information based on what I am experiecing as a user of their platform.

PWCC loans out at 50% of the INSURED value on the cards you have within the vault. The value of my vault is mid six figures as of this post and that number updates almost daily based on current market sales. The insured value on at least my cards seems to historically low. As I said above, I sell typically 2 or 3 times a year and sell about 10-18K in cards at a time. What I have experienced is that the insured values on my cards tend to be 15-25% lower than the realized prices on those same cards via auctions.

I hope this information provides some of you value.

Edit to add: I have never taken a loan against cards or borrowed money from PWCC or anyone else for that matter, so I can not speak to repayment terms, etc.

[Rhotchkiss]

Thanks Matt. It’s helpful to have real info rather than speculation, and as Troy pointed out, who knows how accurate that video is, if at all.

Personally, I think 50% of value is a decent LTV on more stable cards; not sure I would lend on that LTV with more modern/speculative stuff. I mean, I still simply do not understand why/how a Luka Doncic or a Justin Herbert rookie (even if it’s a numbered RPA or whatever) can be viewed as valuable as a m101-4/5 Ruth.

[Popcorn]

a big concern for me would be death. not all of our family/wives are aware of the collection… so how hard would it be to retrieve it after.

[Snowman]

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

I had a discussion with SCR on Blowout where it was clear he did not understand the first fucking thing about the PSA guarantee, but was dismissing all my correct statements about it with LOLs and inane observations. Bad combination of ignorance and arrogrance.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by Snowman

I take everything from Sports Card Radio with a grain of salt. Which is to say, I don't believe a damn word he ever says without actual evidence. He has repeatedly proven himself to be full of sh!t. This "anonymous" source is probably either some random troll from Blowhard or just himself making stuff up to get a rise.

I have first-hand experience with taking "loans" from PWCC (in my case, I wasn't borrowing money against cards in my vault, but rather taking an advance on cards I had already consigned for auction, but it's the same process). This is how it works. First, they appraise your cards and assign an insurance value to them. These values are always low. In some cases, extremely low (one of my cards was insured for $10k, but sold for $18k at auction the following week). If you have cards that you want to take a loan against, you have to put in a loan request for the amount you wish to receive. You are allowed to request up to 50% of the insured value for items in your vault, and up to 75% for cards that have already sold in one of their auctions, but for which you have not yet received payment (normally, it takes about 2 1/2 weeks to receive payment, but you can escalate some of those proceeds if approved - in my case, it was free of charge. I did not have to pay any fees or interest since my cards were already submitted to auction. However, there are fees if you just want to take a loan out on cards sitting in your vault, of course). After you submit your request, it then gets reviewed by a team of underwriters. They will typically send you a counteroffer for less than you've requested (so if you requested the full 50% LTV against the conservatively appraised cards in your vault, you will probably get countered for something like 35% instead. When it's all said and done, their actual exposure is probably somewhere around 25-30% of a card's actual market value when a loan is approved. Unless that's for a card that has already sold and awaiting payment, in which case they'll approve a higher amount as mentioned.

As far as a "bank run on the vault" is concerned, all that would do is cause a shipping backlog at PWCC. Even if they went bankrupt, everyone would still get all of their cards back. Unless they've taken loans out against those cards of course, in which case, PWCC obviously reserves the right to auction those cards to recover any funds owed to them.

What do you think about SCD talking about 30-40 people let go @PWCC tonight then? That didn't take long, LOL. Tomorrow, there will be a PWCC Vault run. We'll see. Won't we? Someone is full of Sh&*