T220 Silver - Uncut Edition

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Found some more after reading Alpheus Greer/Marshall Stillman's 1918 biography of Donovan "Mike Donovan: The Making of A Man" which contains a chapter printing the comments of Donovan's many students about him (always full of praise, the man was either a Saint or these are awfully biased). Mr. E.W. Kearney reported:

"Abstaining from, I may say abhorring, both liquor and tobacco, he was never afraid to declare his principles in that direction, and I know he exerted great influence over many young men in causing them to do likewise. In short, he was a wonderful power for good, apart from his professional boxing capacity." (page 239).

Donovan is also quoted in the 1923 book "The Church and Tobacco" published by the "No-Tobacco Army" in its section of quotes form famous people. For those who believe Connie Mack's distaste of tobacco relates to Eddie Plank's T206 card, he is quoted right after Donovan's "A boy who smokes can never hope to succeed in any line of endeavor" (121). This quote also appears in other anti-tobacco works.

The 1917 Practical Education repeats an extended version of this Donovan quote, alongside assaults on smoking (The "little white slaver") from Frank Baker, Hughie Jennings, Walter Johnson, Clark Griffith, Ty Cobb, Connie Mack, and Red Dooin (pages 480-482). All but Mack sure didn't seen to have an issue with signing image rights away for big tobacco, and Cobb's hypocrisy in the harshness of his comments considering that he had his own brand is just absolutely astounding.

Several variations of Donovan's op-ed that I originally sourced in Good Health were published in other works for a number of years in the early 20th century. He is an oft-cited criticizer of smoking from the people very upset by the practice.

Greer's book makes frequent reference to Donovan's social life in the NYAC, the club for which Fullgraff served on a number of committees and was an active member of its social affairs. I highly doubt I will ever find a primary source document saying it to prove it beyond doubt, but Donovan's SP'ing and then reinstating into the set (with 2 cards even after reinsertion) seems best explained and most likely to be a combination of his distaste for tobacco and his probable friendship (at minimum, a club acquaintance) with the man making those cards.

I am not surprised there is a probable reason for the strange rarity (pulled, and put back again is not the normal pattern), but I am still surprised that the sheet layout is clearly not Donovan and Corbett being together on the sheet, but far apart. Deductively there is almost certainly a separate reason that Corbett was very short printed, and then reinstated also. Corbett I can find almost nothing relating to tobacco at all. Late in life he even had a radio show dedicated to health, but he never mentioned tobacco at all (Fields, "James J. Corbett", page 229).

It's interesting that Dooin is mentioned as being anti-tobacco as he is probably the most prominent of all the subjects in the early ads for T206's. He's at the front of a Sporting life ad and he's on the same Hindu ad twice.

Sporting Life ad.jpg

img653.jpg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

It's interesting that Dooin is mentioned as being anti-tobacco as he is probably the most prominent of all the subjects in the early ads for T206's. He's at the front of a Sporting life ad and he's on the same Hindu ad twice.

Here's the full quote from Red Dooin they published (page 482). Also attaching the Cobb, which is the longest and the most striking in its hypocrisy as Cobb clearly was a tobacco paid man.

It's possible some of these guys did not actually approve their images for the cards. We only have 2 permission letters, one of which says it's for cigarette cards and the other of which says nothing about tobacco at all. Its very possible some of these guys signed without ever knowing it was for tobacco advertising. Also possible some didn't sign at all. The Hyland letter indicates they were diligent about following the law, but I'm not clear on who the NY state law entirely covers or if the courts ever really got into such things with people who resided and worked in other states but came to NY sometimes. Players from other states might not have required one, Hyland indicates they probably sought permission from those in the National and American leagues who would have come to NY with some frequency, but maybe they didn't always do this and it's very possible they didn't do it for distant minor leagues that didn't have New York teams or players.

[steve B]

The idea that someone must keep their business dealings in line with what they believe is right is a fairly new concept.

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Here's the full quote from Red Dooin they published (page 482). Also attaching the Cobb, which is the longest and the most striking in its hypocrisy as Cobb clearly was a tobacco paid man.

It's possible some of these guys did not actually approve their images for the cards. We only have 2 permission letters, one of which says it's for cigarette cards and the other of which says nothing about tobacco at all. Its very possible some of these guys signed without ever knowing it was for tobacco advertising. Also possible some didn't sign at all. The Hyland letter indicates they were diligent about following the law, but I'm not clear on who the NY state law entirely covers or if the courts ever really got into such things with people who resided and worked in other states but came to NY sometimes. Players from other states might not have required one, Hyland indicates they probably sought permission from those in the National and American leagues who would have come to NY with some frequency, but maybe they didn't always do this and it's very possible they didn't do it for distant minor leagues that didn't have New York teams or players.

Very interesting Greg, thanks for sharing that.

[G1911]

Just confirming the sheet layout. Corbett and Randall/Belasco were the most tenuous placements as I had to eyeball the cut of the edges from less than perfect photographs and guesstimate where they belonged.

The guesstimate was correct. The Randall/Belasco is indeed above Coburn, fitting in perfectly in it's cut against both him and Jackson. Randall's back is more toned than the others - I suspect it was the one stored on top, upside down. We will probably never know the full backstory of who had these and brought them to the antiques dealer who sold them for pennies (Twice! The second time after being made aware of what they had), but it seems these sat untouched for a century in the NY area.

Corbett fit's in perfectly with Frayne. It is the only top edge panel with the white cut off, but most of the left side cards have their border trimmed off (only Choyinski has the sheet's left border, confirming for us that that it is indeed 5 panels to a row, 20 cards per row). As we have 23 of the original 25 surviving and only 1 with the corner still present (Jordan), this makes sense. What I took to be small staple or pin holes in the Corbett from the picture turned out not to be holes on close examination; it was just detritus that brushed right off when touched.

In hand, almost every card has differences between it's 8 copies, so that I can match a specific copy of a final production card to which of the 8 slots it came from. Donovan is difficult to do this for, the 8 are all very very similar. McGovern and Driscoll are the easiest. There are noticeable differences in the red on the Corbett's. It would be interesting to see if the surviving Corbett's all track to the same slot or not, but I haven't saved pictures of the ones I've seen, only the Donovan's.

Ryan and McAuliffe evidently have not survived to modernity (the single McAuliffe proof card that exists is almost certainly not from this sheet and source), and must be the lower left and lower right corners, though which is which we probably will never know. Should anyone have a miscut of these cards, a picture would be greatly appreciated.

Attached are the fake news 'holes', the sheet put together as it has been reconstituted today, and then the full layout with the Choyinski's recreated as best as I can, and Ryan/McAuliffe placed one each where they would have gone.

[Marslife]

thas a beautiful thing!

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by G1911

Just confirming the sheet layout. Corbett and Randall/Belasco were the most tenuous placements as I had to eyeball the cut of the edges from less than perfect photographs and guesstimate where they belonged.

The guesstimate was correct. The Randall/Belasco is indeed above Coburn, fitting in perfectly in it's cut against both him and Jackson. Randall's back is more toned than the others - I suspect it was the one stored on top, upside down. We will probably never know the full backstory of who had these and brought them to the antiques dealer who sold them for pennies (Twice! The second time after being made aware of what they had), but it seems these sat untouched for a century in the NY area.

Corbett fit's in perfectly with Frayne. It is the only top edge panel with the white cut off, but most of the left side cards have their border trimmed off (only Choyinski has the sheet's left border, confirming for us that that it is indeed 5 panels to a row, 20 cards per row). As we have 23 of the original 25 surviving and only 1 with the corner still present (Jordan), this makes sense. What I took to be small staple or pin holes in the Corbett from the picture turned out not to be holes on close examination; it was just detritus that brushed right off when touched.

In hand, almost every card has differences between it's 8 copies, so that I can match a specific copy of a final production card to which of the 8 slots it came from. Donovan is difficult to do this for, the 8 are all very very similar. McGovern and Driscoll are the easiest. There are noticeable differences in the red on the Corbett's. It would be interesting to see if the surviving Corbett's all track to the same slot or not, but I haven't saved pictures of the ones I've seen, only the Donovan's.

Ryan and McAuliffe evidently have not survived to modernity (the single McAuliffe proof card that exists is almost certainly not from this sheet and source), and must be the lower left and lower right corners, though which is which we probably will never know. Should anyone have a miscut of these cards, a picture would be greatly appreciated.

Attached are the fake news 'holes', the sheet put together as it has been reconstituted today, and then the full layout with the Choyinski's recreated as best as I can, and Ryan/McAuliffe placed one each where they would have gone.

I was on vacation when you posted this Greg and I just read it this morning. Great info on the sheet layout.

Member mkdltn posted this info in 2010 he didn't post often but his posts were informative and well researched. The T220 sheet seems to be the right size for the hoe #5 press one of the two that he suggested were used for the T cards.

Originally Posted by mkdltn

I am not sure about the 19 inch press track measurement. That might be the measurement for a proving press.

My research leads me to believe that a HOE NO.4 or HOE NO.5 flatbed stop cylinder lithographic press was likely used to produce the T cards. I found an article in an electrical engineering magazine from 1897 describing the new facility that ALC moved into after consolidation. This is approximately 12 years before production of the T206 cards. On the picture of the sixth floor layout posted below there are 30 lithographic presses. I believe the article mentions that this is one of three floors filled with presses. At the time a HOE NO.4 press would cost anywhere from 3000 to 5000 dollars. That would be a capital investment of 120,000 1897 dollars, That is very roughly about 3 and a half million dollars in todays money. (That is very much an approximation because the inflation calculator only goes back to 1914) the point being that I think that ALC would have squeezed every bit of use out those presses and to think that they would still be in functioning 12 to 15 years after installation is not beyond possibility.

The bed of the HOE presses is also posted in image 3. these dimensions lead me to believe that the sheets could have been much likely larger than you would think. The HOE No. 5 could use a 36x52 in stone or plate. Schmidt litho also used similar presses.

01ab.jpg

[G1911]

Originally Posted by Pat R

I was on vacation when you posted this Greg and I just read it this morning. Great info on the sheet layout.

Member mkdltn posted this info in 2010 he didn't post often but his posts were informative and well researched. The T220 sheet seems to be the right size for the hoe #5 press one of the two that he suggested were used for the T cards.



Attachment 561422

20 cards across = ~50 inches
10 cards vertical = ~33 inches

Adding in the white borders to the above, that is pretty much exactly what this gentleman postulates as the max size.

A T206 sheet this size would be much larger than most seem to postulate. I would think different size sheets were used for different sets depending on facility and what other printing jobs were going on at that exact time, but there's no reason the small size cards wouldn't be done on large sheets.

[G1911]

Also, got shown these on the non-sports side. These sheets were evidently destroyed and cutup, for 2 of the fragments reside in my collection now.

There is so little ATC uncut card material left to work with here to make deductions from.

Almost all the rest are tiny print color test 'sheets' that are obviously a different size from production runs.