SGC - say it aint so

[boneheadandrube]

So this is what, a $100-$125 mistake?

[Fred]

For a common card like this, the $100-$125 difference wouldn't be too far off at today's valuations, but it could be more.

The seller has a (IMHO) very high asking price ($524.95) for a common OJ graded "2". I wouldn't pay $100 for it if it were in a correctly labeled "A") slab.

If that card was in the condition (same corner rounding and wear) it is in without the cut off portion and graded a "2" (like the card in post #26), then I'd guess someone might buy it for a couple hundred bucks (maybe more if they're a Chicago fan).

It would be interesting to see how SGC would handle it if was returned to them for being incorrectly labeled/graded.

Perhaps that'll be the next thread I start - "grading errors". I don't mean errors in one persons subjectivity compared to another. It would be labeling errors that could lead to people taking a loss on the card if they bought it and couldn't resell it. If I start that thread then I'll be sure to black out the cert numbers because I'd hate to see the TPG de-cert the card without the person possessing it knowing about the de-cert. Now that wouldn't happen, now would it?

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

Now that I see the larger image I would say it's rebacked (a long time ago) as well. Look at how high the back paper sticks up over the top of the photo.

My guess is trimmed first, and later rebacked.

It may even be rebacked on original stock, as it looks good, but I don't have any other explanation for the mounting stock sticking up over the photo. Makes me wonder if it was done on purpose, but not to deceive? someone who had something against smoking stripping the card, cutting the ad and then remounting it?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Fred

For a common card like this, the $100-$125 difference wouldn't be too far off at today's valuations, but it could be more.

The seller has a (IMHO) very high asking price ($524.95) for a common OJ graded "2". I wouldn't pay $100 for it if it were in a correctly labeled "A") slab.

If that card was in the condition (same corner rounding and wear) it is in without the cut off portion and graded a "2" (like the card in post #26), then I'd guess someone might buy it for a couple hundred bucks (maybe more if they're a Chicago fan).

It would be interesting to see how SGC would handle it if was returned to them for being incorrectly labeled/graded.

Perhaps that'll be the next thread I start - "grading errors". I don't mean errors in one persons subjectivity compared to another. It would be labeling errors that could lead to people taking a loss on the card if they bought it and couldn't resell it. If I start that thread then I'll be sure to black out the cert numbers because I'd hate to see the TPG de-cert the card without the person possessing it knowing about the de-cert. Now that wouldn't happen, now would it?

Interesting question Fred. My understanding has always been that a TPG with a grade guarantee doesn't do anything for the person that actually submitted the card. So if you took a card you originally had graded back to be re-holdered by the same TPG that originally graded it, and they now said it was incorrectly over graded the first time, they aren't paying you anything. The grading guarantee is supposedly only available to a subsequent owner as I've always been led to understand it, right?

So do you, or anyone else, know exactly how that works then. Say you bought this graded OJ card that says it is a 2, but you know it is only Authentic. Can you go back to the TPG and demand the difference in value between the correct and incorrect grades, or have them buy the card from you at the improperly higher graded current value? And maybe even more importantly, do any TPGs then ever ask for proof that you actually bought the incorrectly graded card first, and maybe want further proof of what you paid for it? And if so, then possibly factor all into what they may or may not then decide to pay someone if they do honor their grading guarantee?

Reason for my asking is that if the TPGs don't require actual proof of purchase, and what you paid for the incorrectly graded card, say you got an incorrectly graded card years ago, one for which the value has skyrocketed since you got it. If the TPG that incorrectly graded it did honor their grading guarantee and pay you the value difference, or buy the card outright, based on the card's then current value, they are basically paying you for the appreciated difference over the years. So why wouldn't they do the same thing then for the original submitter of the card for grading if they didn't find out/realize the card had been mis-graded till years later, and after the price had skyrocketed? Seems like this idea to not give the original submitter anything is an intentional BS clause, probably thought up by some attorneys who helped the TPG write their agreements and contracts. If the original owner/submitter wants to have any chance of getting any of the appreciated value he may now be cheated out of by the TPG who incorrectly graded the card to begin with, he basically can only do so by finding an unknowing buyer to cheat by having them pay him for the card based on the incorrect grade. Which now puts the original owner/submitter at risk for getting in trouble as a fraudulent seller. I can see a TPG counting on many people not wanting to do this to someone else, and thus keep the TPG from having to now pay anyone for their earlier mistake.

But then there are the original owners/submitters that don't give a rat's ass, and find a mark.....errrr, buyer. And then, what really happens if down the road the new owner goes back to the TPG after discovering the grading error, I've heard the TPGs will often initially refuse to honor their grading guarantee and tell the owner to simply go back to the party they bought the card from first. In such cases, it seems the TPGs may end up paying nothing and having no seeming liability at all for their grading screw-up, by effectively putting forth a grading guarantee, which helped to lure in the customers in the first place by easing their worries as to the TPG's work, honesty, integrity, and ability to accurately grade their card and then stand behind what they've done, that in some cases ends up being nothing more than pure, worthless BS!!!

So, what would happen to someone if they had originally submitted a card for grading, and the TPG screwed up and way over graded it, and instead of trying to go back to the TPG themself, found a friend or relative to buy the mis-graded card from them for say $1, and then have the friend/relative go back to the TPG regarding their grading error, and seeking the damage in the value difference? How long can the TPGs just keep telling people to go back to the seller, or maybe refuse to acknowledge they originally mis-graded the card, while at the same time pointing to the "in our sole discretion" terminology they may have sprinkled in and throughout their contracts and agreements they had their customer sign off on?

If such a grading guarantee does not effectively pass on to each and every subsequent owner, and the TPGs cannot be counted on to live up to these guarantees, then the grading service and holders themselves are truly just meaningless, and shouldn't be counted on by anyone, ever! Because they sure as hell don't seem to always be able to be counted on and/or backed up by all the TPGs, like they're supposed to be.

[swarmee]

BobC, a couple of corrections for you.

1) PSA is the only company I'm aware of that still has a guarantee in force. So SGC would do nothing for you, or at least is not obligated to by any current policy. BGS does not have one either, and I haven't heard of any of the newer companies (CSG, FCG, TAG, etc) having one. Edited to add: There have been a couple of lawsuits against both companies anyways, because they don't have any type of guarantee, but people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to their incompetence. I believe SGC was shamed into refunding their auto authentications on the T-206s because of backlash against the company, then folded their autograph authentication arm for a while. They are now certifying autos, but not sure if that is just pack-inserted cards that have been pre-certified by the card companies.

2) PSA telling buyers to go back to the submitters referred specifically to trimmed cards, not ones they misgraded accidentally (not seeing a pinhole, writing, crease, etc), because their TOS for submitters originally was to sign a form stating that the cards in the submission were all unaltered, to their own knowledge. So PSA was trusting that submitters be honest, because they know they're incompetent to generally detect alterations. But I was also the one (or at least one of them) to point this clause out to them, and recommended that they force PWCC to take all the returns rather than pay out on all the guarantees directly.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

BobC, a couple of corrections for you.

1) PSA is the only company I'm aware of that still has a guarantee in force. So SGC would do nothing for you, or at least is not obligated to by any current policy. BGS does not have one either, and I haven't heard of any of the newer companies (CSG, FCG, TAG, etc) having one. Edited to add: There have been a couple of lawsuits against both companies anyways, because they don't have any type of guarantee, but people have lost hundreds of thousands of dollars due to their incompetence. I believe SGC was shamed into refunding their auto authentications on the T-206s because of backlash against the company, then folded their autograph authentication arm for a while. They are now certifying autos, but not sure if that is just pack-inserted cards that have been pre-certified by the card companies.

2) PSA telling buyers to go back to the submitters referred specifically to trimmed cards, not ones they misgraded accidentally (not seeing a pinhole, writing, crease, etc), because their TOS for submitters originally was to sign a form stating that the cards in the submission were all unaltered, to their own knowledge. So PSA was trusting that submitters be honest, because they know they're incompetent to generally detect alterations. But I was also the one (or at least one of them) to point this clause out to them, and recommended that they force PWCC to take all the returns rather than pay out on all the guarantees directly.

Hey John,

Thank you very much for the info. I myself do not deal with any TPG (Only did once and that was to merely get some authentication). Was not aware of various things you mentioned, but very glad to learn from someone with much more experience. Good to know.

My main point regarding TPGs having bogus guarantees is still applicable though, especially when they apparently have no guarantees at all. In fact, my point should be even more well taken. If they do not back up and stand behind what they do, and apparently have little or no liability for mistakes, errors and such, their service is pretty much, in truth, worthless. You or I could start up a TPG of our own and be just as reliable (probably better) than the major TPGs out there. Unfortunately, they and other parties/players that run and control our hobby industry already have too much money, exposure, backing, and control, along with the support of others in the industry that also make money off their services, and enrich themselves on the overall gullibility of many in the hobby, to the point that they are too well ensconced for us to expect any major changes and improvements any time soon. Sad, but true.

I've often said the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby. You can still have TPGs and such, but they don't set the rules, decide what the grading standards are according to what they want, change them as they see fit, fail miserably to stand behind what they do, along with exhibiting absolutely no desire or intent to ever be transparent and truly honest with no obvious conflicts-of-interest and bias, and actually provide something other than just profits for themselves.

Thanks again John for correcting me, and/or at least making some of what I was saying more accurate for others.

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

https://www.csgcards.com/card-grading/csg-guarantee/

Having never dealt directly with CSG, or hearing/seeing any stories or news regarding their guarantee or issues being had with it, I can't speak to their guarantee and how they apply it, or how well they may live up to and honor it. I can only sincerely hope that they do live up to it, and provide something the hobby community apparently seems to not always be getting elsewhere.

[Eric72]

Originally Posted by BobC

...the hobby should be run and the rules and such set by the people that actually are in and enjoy the hobby, not by the companies and others that are really just into it to make money off those in the hobby...

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

[the-illini]

It could be just me, but the photo on the rebacked card looks a little more grainy than most OJ cards I have seen

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Eric72

I think many people would resist such a move, no matter how noble the intentions. They would see it as a move towards regulating the hobby. I can hear the outcry:

"...don't want anyone telling me how to hobby..."

(yes, I realize "hobby" isn't a verb; that's just how people speaks deez dayz)

Not talking about regulating the hobby for collectors at all. Talking about regulating those that supposedly provide services to the hobby and its collectors, that make money off all of us and try to tell us how the hobby should be. I imagine you do not care for graded cards that are incorrectly and inconsistently graded, or altered and doctored cards easily getting into slabs and no one seeming to stop doing business with those known to be behind that, interacting and doing business with dealers/consignees/AHs and such that are behind or support shill bidding, make false claims, push fake or altered items, and on and on and on. The group I'd like to see having the control and oversight would be made up of the actual collectors, so they would decide what the grading standards should be, who the members accept to do business with within the hobby community, and actually fulfill what the collectors want and desire, not the other way around.

Won't happen though because too many collectors themselves have profited off the actions of players in the industry, and wouldn't want to risk what they have tied up in their collections. If such a hobby group finally came to be, say a particular TPG refused to abide by the hobby organization's rules and such, and therefore were no longer recognized by the hobby. And if the hobby organization's members stayed united and quit doing business with that TPG and recognizing and trading in their slabs, everyone with cards in that TPG's slabs would likely see a sudden and tremendous drop in prices for their cards. Suddenly, all the hobby members with a major collection in that TPG's slabs would potentially be taking a big hit value/income wise, which would likely cause them to have serious second thoughts about having joined and following the hobby organization to begin with.

And the bad players would probably go on doing business on their own anyway, followed by those that don't know better, or couldn't care less, and either never joined the hobby organization as members to begin with, or dropped out of it after the fact. As long as they can continue to make some money and get what they want, and they don't really care much for ethics and integrity. Just like some not so well-liked players in the industry today seem to be doing well on their own, despite many people in the hobby no longer doing business with them.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

However, after looking into things a little more, apparently CSG does have a grading guaranty also.

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Thanks for finding it. I didn't realize they did, or forgot over the years.

This is from it, in big bold letters:
"Important Limitation: Under no circumstance will compensation be paid in instances where Owner has suffered no actual damages as a result of the error in certification or in reliance on the Guarantee."

Saw that limitation as well John. So, the big question is then, what is their definition of 'damages".

Someone buys a card and pays based on the incorrect grade, and then takes it back to CSG to be re-holdered and finds out it was incorrectly graded. I assume "damages" would be the amount they overpaid for the card based on what it's correct FMV at the time of the purchase would have been, had it been properly graded to begin with. Of course, that also assumes that CSG agrees/affirms that they incorrectly graded the card to begin with. They could just re-holder it with the incorrect grade and say nothing. And you can't go to a different TPG that says the grade is wrong, because to my knowledge, NONE of the TPGs will ever recognize, affirm, or rely upon the grading opinions of any other TPGs out there, nor are they legally bound to. (Another big reason I keep saying we need one set of grading standards recognized across the entire hobby, and that ALL the TPGs are forced to follow and recognize among themselves.)

But what about an owner that goes to sell a card they've owned for a long time, and can now make a big profit on because that card's value has skyrocketed over the years. They find a potential buyer, but the potential buyer questions the grade. So the parties agree to have it reviewed. Potential buyer and seller take the card to a local show that CSG is in attendance at, and ask them to review the grade. CSG acknowledges it is incorrectly over graded, and the potential buyer backs out of the deal. So the owner, who also happens to be the one who originally submitted the card to CSG for grading, takes it back to CSG and says they just lost $XXXX of profit on the card's sale because of their grading mistake. And say the owner was counting on and really needed that money to pay for some medical expenses, or maybe college tuition for a child, or some other personal need or reason. What, if any, are the "damages" CSG would recognize and pay/reimburse the owner for? I can certainly see what the owner would view as his "damages".

It would be so much nicer if these types/kinds of guarantees/agreements weren't always so ambiguous. Makes you start to wonder if the businesses/attorneys that came up with them didn't do that intentionally all along.