PSA reholder issues - warning to submitters

[BobC]

Originally Posted by gonefishin

I have a very similar situation with Beckett. A couple of years ago I purchased a BGS graded 6.5, 1948 Carl Braun rookie (picture attached). Back in Oct/Nov 2022 time frame I was looking at the card and decided to check the population. When I entered the serial number it didn't come up in the pop report. I did some extensive research and came to the conclusion my card was graded in 2002 and that both the bar code and serial number were in error. The case had never been tampered with and is in excellent condition. After several attempts I got a CS person (Jay Donayre) on the phone. He explained to me that at some point Beckett had a problem with the system crashing or something similar and they had to re-input the compromised data, and my label issue probably stemmed from that.

He sent me a form and told me to complete the form he sent me and return to Beckett for re-slabbing and label correction. He also told me the card would be graded to verify the assigned grade. This happens to be the highest graded 48 Braun in Beckett. Needless to say, I still have the card and have decided not to send it back.

I intend to sell it at some point in the future, but have concerns since the assigned serial number doesn't appear in the pop report. So, I guess I'm in a quandary - damned if you do - damned if you don't!

That actually sucks. THEY have a problem and create an error/situation that you had nothing to do with, and now compromises your potential ability to sell the card. And then THEY dictate to you that in going to fix it, they can re-assess the card and harm your value, maybe significantly, and there's nothing you can say or do about it? That is so wrong!!!!

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by BobC

That actually sucks. THEY have a problem and create an error/situation that you had nothing to do with, and now compromises your potential ability to sell the card. And then THEY dictate to you that in going to fix it, they can re-assess the card and harm your value, maybe significantly, and there's nothing you can say or do about it? That is so wrong!!!!

Most of the companies now have this, because they've all now been sold over time and have different ownership groups. So they are absolving themselves of the liability of cards graded by previous administrations.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Most of the companies now have this, because they've all now been sold over time and have different ownership groups. So they are absolving themselves of the liability of cards graded by previous administrations.

I know John, and it sucks. Just like you pointed out two posts ago, the TPG calls the shots, and everything that is decided appears to be in or at "their sole discretion". The contracts and agreements many players in this industry have people/customers sign are typically slanted against the collectors/customers, it is truly sad. The TPGs are not unbiased or without conflicts-of-interest to start with, just look at the contingent fees and charges they hit you with where you pay more based on the value of the card, yet you are supposed to be getting a totally honest and independent opinion on a card's condition and authenticity, and basically the exact same service and work on every card, regardless of if it is worth $10, $10,000, or even $1,000,000 or more.

It is corporate business tactics, coupled with and using legal language, to protect TPG interests, and pocketbooks, as much as possible, and give them as much of an advantage and control over their customers in case they make a mistake and screw up, or otherwise provide or do a disservice to their customers.

For example, with regard to the issue with damaged cases somehow possibly absolving a TPG of standing by their earlier opinion and potentially harming the value of the customer's card, remember it was the TPG that created the case used to encapsulate the card and decided what materials would be used to make it and how it is designed in the first place. Now granted, someone could drop it and accidently damage the case and/or card. And in that situation, it seems that under the current types of TPG agreements and such that we're reading and learning about in this thread, that accident can possibly remove further financial liability and risk to the TPG in case of changes to the card's condition, even if the difference was a screw-up in how the TPG originally graded the card. But what is really the difference between accidently dropping a graded card, which ends up damaging the card and/or the holder, or driving an old American made car that was later found to have been made with an inferior or defective gas tank that could explode if you got into an accident? Based on what some of these TPG agreements seem to all be saying, one would think that if you applied the same logic and position to the exploding cars, the car manufacturer would not be at fault or risk at all because THEY didn't cause the accident, someone else did, so the explosion isn't their fault or financial responsibility for personal injury and property damage somehow.

And before one of the trolls or naysayers jumps on to tell me I'm crazy or how that is ridiculous, really think about it first. The TPGs decide and pick the design and materials used for these slabs, which they market and advertise as protecting the card and its grading integrity. But if you accidently drop it, which everyone knows is going to happen many times to many cards over the years, the TPGs are somehow given a free pass to decide what and how they can react, and have it basically absolve them of potential liability for any issues arising from the damaged card or holder? Maybe had the TPGs picked better materials, and/or had a better design for their graded card slabs, the potential damage to a card and its condition from being accidently dropped maybe would not have been happening, and the TPG could be held to stand behind their original grade. Gee, how did that work out in the car manufacturers situation though? They weren't responsible for the accidents that caused their cars and not-so-great gas tanks to blow up, were they? So, like a TPG, shouldn't they also not really be financially responsible for any damage or costs from gas tanks exploding from an accident that they didn't initiate or cause, right? LOL

Hopefully some people will see and realize the connection between the two situations, and how at a basic level, they really are the same thing/issue. As I said back in post #5 of this thread, if you start getting enough harmed people together, either combining cases or maybe initiating a class-action suit, you may be able to start to go back against these types of organizations in the hobby industry, and their one-sided and somewhat biased contracts and agreements, and see about getting some more fair treatment and be compensated where appropriate. At worst, it would expose more people in the hobby to the potential issues and problems they can encounter by choosing to work with/employ some of these entities and companies in the collecting industry, and bring some of these intentional disadvantages in their contracts/agreements, and the way they treat their customers, to light.

As most always seems the case though, the TPGs and their seeming control of the collectors in the hobby will likely override any real change or improvements in how hobby customers/collectors are treated in such contracts/agreements.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by BobC

I know John, and it sucks. Just like you pointed out two posts ago, the TPG calls the shots, and everything that is decided appears to be in or at "their sole discretion". The contracts and agreements many players in this industry have people/customers sign are typically slanted against the collectors/customers, it is truly sad. The TPGs are not unbiased or without conflicts-of-interest to start with, just look at the contingent fees and charges they hit you with where you pay more based on the value of the card, yet you are supposed to be getting a totally honest and independent opinion on a card's condition and authenticity, and basically the exact same service and work on every card, regardless of if it is worth $10, $10,000, or even $1,000,000 or more.

It is corporate business tactics, coupled with and using legal language, to protect TPG interests, and pocketbooks, as much as possible, and give them as much of an advantage and control over their customers in case they make a mistake and screw up, or otherwise provide or do a disservice to their customers.

For example, with regard to the issue with damaged cases somehow possibly absolving a TPG of standing by their earlier opinion and potentially harming the value of the customer's card, remember it was the TPG that created the case used to encapsulate the card and decided what materials would be used to make it and how it is designed in the first place. Now granted, someone could drop it and accidently damage the case and/or card. And in that situation, it seems that under the current types of TPG agreements and such that we're reading and learning about in this thread, that accident can possibly remove further financial liability and risk to the TPG in case of changes to the card's condition, even if the difference was a screw-up in how the TPG originally graded the card. But what is really the difference between accidently dropping a graded card, which ends up damaging the card and/or the holder, or driving an old American made car that was later found to have been made with an inferior or defective gas tank that could explode if you got into an accident? Based on what some of these TPG agreements seem to all be saying, one would think that if you applied the same logic and position to the exploding cars, the car manufacturer would not be at fault or risk at all because THEY didn't cause the accident, someone else did, so the explosion isn't their fault or financial responsibility for personal injury and property damage somehow.
Bob, you raise an interesting point about PSA's policy on upcharging
And before one of the trolls or naysayers jumps on to tell me I'm crazy or how that is ridiculous, really think about it first. The TPGs decide and pick the design and materials used for these slabs, which they market and advertise as protecting the card and its grading integrity. But if you accidently drop it, which everyone knows is going to happen many times to many cards over the years, the TPGs are somehow given a free pass to decide what and how they can react, and have it basically absolve them of potential liability for any issues arising from the damaged card or holder? Maybe had the TPGs picked better materials, and/or had a better design for their graded card slabs, the potential damage to a card and its condition from being accidently dropped maybe would not have been happening, and the TPG could be held to stand behind their original grade. Gee, how did that work out in the car manufacturers situation though? They weren't responsible for the accidents that caused their cars and not-so-great gas tanks to blow up, were they? So, like a TPG, shouldn't they also not really be financially responsible for any damage or costs from gas tanks exploding from an accident that they didn't initiate or cause, right? LOL

Hopefully some people will see and realize the connection between the two situations, and how at a basic level, they really are the same thing/issue. As I said back in post #5 of this thread, if you start getting enough harmed people together, either combining cases or maybe initiating a class-action suit, you may be able to start to go back against these types of organizations in the hobby industry, and their one-sided and somewhat biased contracts and agreements, and see about getting some more fair treatment and be compensated where appropriate. At worst, it would expose more people in the hobby to the potential issues and problems they can encounter by choosing to work with/employ some of these entities and companies in the collecting industry, and bring some of these intentional disadvantages in their contracts/agreements, and the way they treat their customers, to light.

As most always seems the case though, the TPGs and their seeming control of the collectors in the hobby will likely override any real change or improvements in how hobby customers/collectors are treated in such contracts/agreements.

Bob, you raise an interesting point on PSA's practice of uploading additional fees when a cards value exceeds whatever price threshold they determine.

I guess my question is what criteria do they use to determine a card's value?I think most would agree that their SMR is sorely out-of-date, so do they refer to VCP? And wouldn't there be a conflict of interest that the grader might push a valuable card's grade a smidge higher over the threshold mark in order to generate more fees?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Bob, you raise an interesting point on PSA's practice of uploading additional fees when a cards value exceeds whatever price threshold they determine.

I guess my question is what criteria do they use to determine a card's value?I think most would agree that their SMR is sorely out-of-date, so do they refer to VCP? And wouldn't there be a conflict of interest that the grader might push a valuable card's grade a smidge higher over the threshold mark in order to generate more fees?

John, if memory serves, when you look at the policies they post on their site (which I think you posted the link to), when it comes to determining value in cases where there is a refund or payment to be made by them, doesn't it state something along the lines of that determination being "at their sole discretion"?

From the way it seems TPGs word their agreements and contracts, if you agree to have them do work/provide services for you, you may be giving up the right to any fair and impartial determination of values and damages, and basically give them all the power to decide what and how they want a situation to be decided, if an issue ever arises.