Any player cards you dont collect because of morals

[packs]

Originally Posted by bnorth

Wouldn't posting the actual batting average during that time be WAY more relevant since that is what is being discussed. ERA is for pitchers.

Are you suggesting there's no link between worse pitching and an elite hitter's rising batting average? Does rising league average ERA not indicate pitching declined as his career went on?

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Are you suggesting there's no link between worse pitching and an elite hitter's rising batting average? Does rising league average ERA not indicate pitching declined as his career went on?

There is a link but if we are just using things with links why not total bases?

[packs]

I feel like you think I'm being arbitrary but there was a statistical decline in pitching because pitching got worse. It makes sense that an elite hitter would get better if the average pitcher is worse. I don't see why that's laughable. That's what I would expect to happen.

[BobbyStrawberry]

I never collected his cards anyway, but I'm guessing there aren't too many Felipe Vazquez collectors on here. He's one guy I'm not interested in collecting....

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by BobbyStrawberry

I never collected his cards anyway, but I'm guessing there aren't too many Felipe Vazquez collectors on here. He's one guy I'm not interested in collecting....

...or John Wetteland

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

...or John Wetteland

Definitely

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

...or John Wetteland

Had to google that one; wish I hadn't.

[G1911]

If the claim is that “pitching got worse”, then using ERA makes sense. It’s the standard criteria of effectiveness for pitchers, and the core claim made was about pitchers.

I don’t think pitching just gets worse one year, I think we’re seeing the growing effect of steroid proliferation and expansion.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by packs

I feel like you think I'm being arbitrary but there was a statistical decline in pitching because pitching got worse. It makes sense that an elite hitter would get better if the average pitcher is worse. I don't see why that's laughable. That's what I would expect to happen.

I don't think you're being arbitrary, but did you ever realize and consider that the NL expansion and addition ot two more teams, the Colorado Rockies and Florida Marlins, just happened to also occur in 1993, the exact same year you noted the NL change in average ERA? Pitching may not have necessarily gotten worse, but obviously became more diluted due to the expansion. Also, the continuing and possibly expanding use of PEDs, and maybe a particular new PED coming out around that same time, could also be a contributing factor to the increasing ERAs. Hey, if nothing else, simply adding the Colorado Rockies with their mile high altitude and thin air into the NL is going to have at least a small impact on the overall NL average ERA, don't you think?

[packs]

Originally Posted by BobC

I don't think you're being arbitrary, but did you ever realize and consider that the NL expansion and addition ot two more teams, the Colorado Rockies and Florida Marlins, just happened to also occur in 1993, the exact same year you noted the NL change in average ERA? Pitching may not have necessarily gotten worse, but obviously became more diluted due to the expansion. Also, the continuing and possibly expanding use of PEDs, and maybe a particular new PED coming out around that same time, could also be a contributing factor to the increasing ERAs. Hey, if nothing else, simply adding the Colorado Rockies with their mile high altitude and thin air into the NL is going to have at least a small impact on the overall NL average ERA, don't you think?

Did you consider I might have thought of all those things and that's why I said pitching got worse as Gwynn's career went on? From 1992 to 1997 the NL average ERA went from 3.50 to 4.20, that is a significant rise and I'm not sure how you can say it doesn't indicate a decline in pitching. You said pitching was diluted, same thing. If the average pitcher is worse and there are more bad pitchers than good pitchers, why wouldn't it stand to reason that an elite hitter would have a higher batting average against weaker competition?

I don't see where the controversy lies with Gwynn.

[Cliff Bowman]

In 107 AB’s against Greg Maddux, Gwynn hit .415 against him. I don’t think Gwynn cared who was pitching.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by packs

Did you consider I might have thought of all those things and that's why I said pitching got worse as Gwynn's career went on? From 1992 to 1997 the NL average ERA went from 3.50 to 4.20, that is a significant rise and I'm not sure how you can say it doesn't indicate a decline in pitching. You said pitching was diluted, same thing. If the average pitcher is worse and there are more bad pitchers than good pitchers, why wouldn't it stand to reason that an elite hitter would have a higher batting average against weaker competition?

I don't see where the controversy lies with Gwynn.

Seriously still on ERA.
Here you go.
https://www.baseball-reference.com/leagues/NL/bat.shtml

[packs]

I don’t see how this helps your cause either. Average batting average went from 252 in 1992 to 264 in 1993. Very clearly demonstrating a decline in the quality of pitching and average players hitting for a higher batting average.