PWCC Auctions - Mystery Bid Post Auction?

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Blunder19

I think its interesting that their default is when you buy a card it goes to their vault.. and when you sell a card the money stays in your PWCC account..

So I never get a payout when i sell a card and i never physically receive a card when I buy one.. those are horrible default settings!

I'm pretty sure most slot machines now don't give out money automatically when you win, you have to press a button to get your winnings out. That way, if you don't see and touch it, it's easier to just keep spending it. Same idea as what PWCC is doing with keeping your money in their account.

[Republicaninmass]

Earning interest? Cant you buy pwcc bonds as well?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

Earning interest? Cant you buy pwcc bonds as well?

Well they are loans, aren't they? And I would think they would have something in writing and not just be handing money over to people.

Put it this way. Even if they didn't actually list interest in their loan agreements with customers/consigners, the IRS could still impute interest using the AFR for the month the loan is made, and then based on how long the loan is for.

And don't go giving them ideas about bonds, or think of that as a big joke. If they're making loans for some of the large amounts people were speculating they were handing out, unless they were sitting on a huge pile of cash to make those loans, I'm guessing they're either working with a bank and have some kind of credit line or facility in place, and/or possibly have others investing in or loaning money to them (not too far fetched from your bond idea). In fact, the idea of others loaning or investing money with them actually makes more sense than them funding everything with a credit line/facility from some bank. I have no idea how well off the owners are to be able to pledge assets to be able to collateralize a credit line with a bank. Their business itself probably doesn't really have any major assets beyond possibly land and a building(s) they may own. They aren't going to be heavy with equipment, and I doubt they have any significant inventory as pretty much everything they sell or have in the vault belongs to their customers and consigners, not them. Now they will show the loans owed to them as assets, but no bank can rely on third party loans receivable like that alone as sufficient to collateralize loans then made to PWCC. Especially when the underlying assets for everything ends up being sportscards. That is not the kind of asset bankers will likely know much about, and I would definitely feel it is not the kind of assets they'd want to end up owning if the worst case scenario ever happened. So I really don't know what PWCC is doing, but would be surprised if they don't have outstanding bonds/loans held by somebody, to allow them to operate.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss

+100

The issue is not whether the card is altered, but whether an “expert” authentication and grading company has certified/slabbed an altered card with a numerical grade, implying it has not been altered.

There are countless examples of PSA reaffirming their grades in the face of overwhelming evidence of grading. Beckett snd SGC are hardly clean themselves (although I openly favor SGC and think they do the nest job/make the fewest mistakes?

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Exactly. It's all about disclosure. If it isn't disclosed, it's fraud. Many of us aren't interested in rewarding the skill of some criminal who can make cards look prettier. Originality may not be important to others, I get that. But that choice should be made on an informed basis, not on the basis of deception.

There's an example in the casino memorabilia collectibles hobby that I think parallels either where this hobby currently stands or is at least destined to land. There are a lot of people who collect casino chips, myself included. Every year in Vegas, there is a chip convention, which is their equivalent of the National (albeit much smaller). Extremely rare and valuable chips trade hands at dealers' booths just like cards do at sports card conventions. The main difference is that casino chip collectors have rejected the slabbing of casino chips by a TPG. However, a chip's overall condition still affects the value of a chip. But in that hobby, nearly everyone cleans their chips if they are dirty. There are countless forum threads or YouTube videos teaching people how to clean their chips, and everyone in that hobby discusses it regularly. I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I'm constantly loaning to friends who use it to clean the chips in their collection. I've even made videos for people about how to do it. Some ignoramus over at Blowhard even attempted to "call me out" as a conman by linking to it on Blowhard, saying "see, he even alters casino chips!" as if anyone cares. But in that hobby, not only are people ok with cleaning their chips, nearly everyone prefers it. A chip's value is determined by how much wear the chip has, not whether or not it has been cleaned (or "altered" as some baseball card enthusiasts would charge). However, every year at the chip convention there is this one dealer who sets up his booth and announces with pride to any prospective buyers that his chips haven't been cleaned, unlike all the other chips at the convention and are thus in their "orginal" state and untainted. He boasts this as a point of pride and prices them at a premium over his neighboring dealers because in his eyes, that makes them worth more. He's the only one left out of a small handful of chip dealers over the years who still thinks this way. Nobody else in the hobby gives two shits about it though, and if they buy a chip from him (which almost nobody ever does because his prices are too high) then they're just going to roll their eyes as they overpay and then take the chip home and clean it before adding it to their display case at home. It's pretty funny. Whenever I read through the comments on the Blowhard forums, I always picture that guy with his dirty chips yelling at clouds. I bet he wants to turn the everyone else in to the cops for committing "fraud" with their cleaned "altered" chips that nobody else even thought about disclosing because nobody cares.

If any of you ultra purists want a sneak peek of the future of this hobby, just fly into Vegas the 3rd week of June next year and head on down to the South Point Casino to check out the chip convention and look for our friend. You can't miss him. He's the guy with the dirty chips and no one standing in front of his booth.

If a card has been altered and looks mangled, the market will adjust for it. If someone gets scammed by a counterfietter or by someone recoloring or rebacking a card, there are legal recourses they can pursue. If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? If you don't trust the opinions of the TPGs, then you don't have to play that game. Feel free to buy and sell everything raw and trust your own judgment. The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions. Hell, it doesn't even make the person who altered a card a criminal. If you honestly think that a court of law is going to find someone guilty of a crime because they bought a baseball card, cleaned it, and then resold it for more money, I think you're delusional. When someone does this in the casino chips collection hobby, it's called a "cleaning fee", and people are happy to pay more for chips that have been cleaned. If some dumbass tries to clean a chip by tossing it in a bucket of Clorox Bleach, then they're going to ruin that chip and its resale value will be greatly affected as a result. Same with this hobby. If someone tries to clean a card with some magic potion of harsh chemicals that end up ruining the card, then the market value of that card will plummet, slabbed or unslabbed. People don't like washed out looking cards any more than chip collectors want washed out looking chips. But if you still want to complain because when is able to clean a card safely, without the use of harsh chemicals, restoring it to its original state before little Billy spilled his hot cocoa on it then you've just become the old man yelling at clouds. It also doesn't make the TPGs immoral or incompetent because they couldn't detect that the card was cleaned. But if you think you can detect all these alterations with your eagle eyes, then go start up the BODA grading company where you can research every submission for 2 hours straight, scouring the internet for possible matches before giving it the BODA seal of approval (that is, until the 'before' photo later surfaces... oops, now what?). Maybe you can get a nifty little sticker to put on it like Mike Baker does? Perhaps it will demand a premium? (I know where I'll place my bets on that wager). But if you don't like the opinion of a TPG, then just get another one or don't get one at all. Who cares? At the end of the day, it's just a card. But most of us value their opinions a lot more than 'jumpinJimmy123' on eBay who lists his VG 3 cards as "near mint" on eBay. But that doesn't mean I'm buying a PSA card blindly just because it's in their holder. I'm still going to examine it for myself to see if it meets my standards.

[STL1944]

After several requests from PWCC asking for some sort of documentation showing bid history or why the "Congratulations! You've Won!" email along with requests for my PWCC "rep" to contact me, this is the email I received:

"Sorry for any concern caused. Sadly we have to honor the high bid. Please feel free to review our Marketplace Security page on our website to see the steps we have taken to secure our Auction. Please also feel free to reach out to Max and he will be happy to discuss this with you!

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/marketplace-security

Robby Rittenhouse
PWCC Marketplace"


I have gone ahead and paid for the item given the low dollar amount and have requested that PWCC delete my account.

I am not alleging fraud in this case but I do not trust their platform and found the whole process suspect. I would not recommend buying from the auctions not matter how good of a "deal" it appears to be.



Just to make sure I am in compliance with forum guidelines, my real name is Jim McKinley.

[BobbyStrawberry]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There are a lot of people who collect casino chips, myself included. .... in that hobby, nearly everyone cleans their chips if they are dirty....in that hobby, not only are people ok with cleaning their chips, nearly everyone prefers it.

If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? .... But if you still want to complain because when is able to clean a card safely, restoring it to its original state before little Billy spilled his hot cocoa on it then you've just become the old man yelling at clouds. ... Who cares? At the end of the day, it's just a card.

Travis, I believe you are not accounting for an important distinction between paper/cardboard ephemera and poker chips, which, if my research is correct, have been made for a very long time with materials like plastic or ceramic.

As a collector of ephemera, it seems to me self-evident that it is not possible to "restore [it] to its original state" as you propose. These are documents from another time which have aged, not shiny objects to be polished or trimmed around the edges to look "better".

I don't doubt that there are many who would agree with you, but that's my two cents.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Different hobbies, different mentalities. Most of us were taught to prize originality and to reject most alterations, and to prefer differentiation according to which cards had better survived the test of time, rather than by the quality of alterations and pure looks. At some level there is an arbitrariness to it I suppose, and a new generation is free of course to reject it and to prefer the better repaired/better looking cards, but that doesn't make my ethos stupid.

As I said two plus years ago to the NY Times reporter, and I stand by it,
“Originality is the bedrock of the hobby, and it all flows from there. Most people place a premium on originality and don’t want altered cards.”

Were I interviewed today, I would add that there does seem to be a significant group that doesn't really care as long as the alteration isn't too obvious.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by STL1944

After several requests from PWCC asking for some sort of documentation showing bid history or why the "Congratulations! You've Won!" email along with requests for my PWCC "rep" to contact me, this is the email I received:

"Sorry for any concern caused. Sadly we have to honor the high bid. Please feel free to review our Marketplace Security page on our website to see the steps we have taken to secure our Auction. Please also feel free to reach out to Max and he will be happy to discuss this with you!

https://www.pwccmarketplace.com/marketplace-security

Robby Rittenhouse
PWCC Marketplace"


I have gone ahead and paid for the item given the low dollar amount and have requested that PWCC delete my account.

I am not alleging fraud in this case but I do not trust their platform and found the whole process suspect. I would not recommend buying from the auctions not matter how good of a "deal" it appears to be.



Just to make sure I am in compliance with forum guidelines, my real name is Jim McKinley.

You received an email saying you won on an item you didn’t win?

[drcy]

There's nothing inherently wrong with alterations-- so long as they are disclosed.

That disclosure rule is absolute in all areas of collecting, including in areas where alterations (restoration, etc.) are common and accepted.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by drcy

There's nothing inherently wrong with alterations-- so long as they are disclosed.

That disclosure rule is absolute in all areas of collecting, including in areas where alterations (restoration, etc.) are common and accepted.

Funny how 99 percent of the time with cards, they aren't.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by Snowman

If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions.

I at least in part agree with much of what you shared Travis. Similarly in comic books - cleaning and pressing has become "accepted" in the marketplace. Where I choose to differ is this - the "3rd party opinion peddlers" claim to consistently be able to identify and reject "altered" cards - even having different designations for the alterations they detect (as an aside in response to a separate post - I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered") when the truth is they clearly cannot. Leaving those who "slipped one past" benefitting and those who did not or are buyers of the one that did being hurt - an unfair playing field for those depending on their opinions. If they could catch even 98% of them or stop claiming they can and stop trying or even being honest and admit - some slip by, then I would agree with your statement in its entirety. My problem is they claim to do something they cannot, it, therefore, gets applied unequally and benefits some while hurting others.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered"

Will disagree with this one. If a card has been pressed to a thinner card by people screwing it into a holder, it is altered/pressed. Just because that person thought they were protecting their card doesn't matter. The card is damaged, and should be treated as such. Not identifying pressed cards as altered also would obscure those cards with wrinkles or creases that are then pressed out.

[mrreality68]

Remember they have motivation to have you leave your money in your account with them.
The Loans they give other people ( and charge interest on)
And
Similar to a bank they float money. So the money you keep in your account helps keep them more liquid and use those funds to help fund the loans.
This way they minimize their funds required and meet all their customers needs

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I at least in part agree with much of what you shared Travis. Similarly in comic books - cleaning and pressing has become "accepted" in the marketplace. Where I choose to differ is this - the "3rd party opinion peddlers" claim to consistently be able to identify and reject "altered" cards - even having different designations for the alterations they detect (as an aside in response to a separate post - I 1000% think it is RIDICULOUS that they mark cards that sat in screw downs too long as "altered") when the truth is they clearly cannot. Leaving those who "slipped one past" benefitting and those who did not or are buyers of the one that did being hurt - an unfair playing field for those depending on their opinions. If they could catch even 98% of them or stop claiming they can and stop trying or even being honest and admit - some slip by, then I would agree with your statement in its entirety. My problem is they claim to do something they cannot, it, therefore, gets applied unequally and benefits some while hurting others.

Absolutely! I completely agree with you there. The screw-down damage equating to an "alteration" is a joke. How is a corner getting squished any different from an indentation elsewhere on a card's surface? And they don't even differentiate on the flip between a screw-down damaged card and a trimmed card.

I also agree that the TPGs falsely advertise their abilities. I think it's mostly born out of hubris. I think years ago, they honestly believed they'd be able to catch this stuff. After all, it's not that difficult to identify a trimmed edge when someone cuts it with an Exacto knife or a pair of scissors, or even a guillotine-style office paper cutter. The BODA threads were probably a HUGE eye-opener for them with respect to the scope of this problem (or at least it should have been). If someone has the right equipment (and clearly there is no shortage of people who do) then those trimmed cards simply cannot be distinguished from a factory edge. The fact that cards are cut with blades at the manufacturers should have made this obvious, but they thought they all had eagle eyes. It's just like all the lemmings in the Blowhard threads who all think they could easily detect any trimmed card, then they all proceed to disagree about which edges were trimmed on the cards that get posted lol. Then they all say, "just measure it" as if that's actually sufficient for determining if a card has been trimmed. The reality is, it's just not that easy to detect a "properly?" "well?" deceitfully trimmed card, unfortunately. There's too much variance in card sizes from the manufacturer for a ruler to matter most of the time. Sure, if you trim a card 1/8" short, then it's easy to detect. But I'd wager good money that they catch the overwhelming majority of cards that actually measure 1/8" short percentage-wise. But these guys are literally shaving off 1/64th of an inch sometimes. That's insane. I bet some of these oversized cards could be micro-trimmed 3 or 4 times and would still measure to specs.

I don't think it's just an issue of insufficient time being spent on each card either. Sure, given more time, they'll be able to detect more trimmed cards, but you're probably talking about moving the needle from being able to detect 22% of trimmed cards to 26% of trimmed cards or something negligible like that if they had more time on each card.

They could just come clean and be honest about their limitations. Just admit that it's not possible to detect a high percentage of these and that they'll just do the best they can. The problem with that approach though is that it opens up the door to more of this behavior and fast tracks it to being more widely accepted. I think they want to see if they can still detect it. That's partly what they were hoping for when they acquired Genamint. But it's a fool's errand. The reason these cuts cannot be detected is because there simply isn't a difference there to detect. It's like cutting a piece of paper in two places with the same pair of scissors and then handing it to someone else and asking them to tell you which cut was made first by examining the cuts with a ruler and a jeweler's loupe.

It would be interesting to run an experiment where we sent in large quantities of different cards, each with various alterations to each of the TPGs to see what they were able to detect and then analyze the results. I wouldn't even be surprised if the majority of alterations actually get through at every single TPG. It'd be interesting to run an experiment with the forum members too. Especially over at Blowhard where seemingly everyone thinks they could easilty catch this stuff. You could post a 20 card test, half of which have been expertly trimmed and the other half not. Ask them to identify which cards have been trimmed and on which edges, but don't tell them how many are untrimmed, just post all 20 cards blind. They'll say every single card was trimmed and the edges they identify would probably be nearly chosen at random.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by swarmee

Will disagree with this one. If a card has been pressed to a thinner card by people screwing it into a holder, it is altered/pressed. Just because that person thought they were protecting their card doesn't matter. The card is damaged, and should be treated as such. Not identifying pressed cards as altered also would obscure those cards with wrinkles or creases that are then pressed out.

I agree with the highlighted text. The card has sustained damage and should be treated as such. But that's not the same thing as being altered. Why not treat it like they do with creases? A creased card can't get higher than a 4 (or a 1.5 it seems nowadays). Just give it a fair grade that reflects the damage. Why is that so difficult to do? Got a NM looking 52 Mantle with squished corners? Give it a 5 instead of an 8 or whatever. But to put it in a "Altered" slab and give it a scalet letter with no explanation to accompany that decision? That's bullshit IMO.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Remember they have motivation to have you leave your money in your account with them.
The Loans they give other people ( and charge interest on)
And
Similar to a bank they float money. So the money you keep in your account helps keep them more liquid and use those funds to help fund the loans.
This way they minimize their funds required and meet all their customers needs

Jeff,

I don't think that is really true because first off, they're not a bank. Banks have unbelievably strict federal and state rules and requirements they must adhere to and abide by to do what they do. And I doubt they have anything like that in place without it being public knowledge.

Plus, by doing what you're saying it would put them at extreme risk if they suddenly had a lot of customers want their money back. Banks, at least federally licensed ones, can normally get short term loans from the Federal Reserve Bank to cover such cash needs/shortfalls. That option isn't available to them. Now they do have the possibility of obtaining loans through a credit line or other credit facility they may have with their own bank, but that is probably going to require such loans to be collateralized. And trust me. no U.S. bank is ever going to consider funds they're holding for their customers/consigners that they themselves don't own or have any legal right to as acceptable collateral for making a loan to them.

I think the holding of funds is more along the same idea they take advantage of with the vault. Someone holding something in their vault will likely just consign it back to them to sell should they ever decide to sell it. It is easier and convenient for the seller/consigner as they don't really have to do anything. And the same kind of goes for them just holding the cash for someone they just sold something for. Now if that same seller/consigner who's money PWCC is holding sees something that PWCC is selling for someone else and buys it, they can just tell PWCC to pay for their purchase with the funds they'd been holding for them. Can have various reasons people would choose to do this. The simple ease of doing it (laziness), the fact that someone likes the idea of keeping all their card collectiing activity and financing of it separate from their other finances and activities (similar to how many people keep separate investment/retirement accounts), or how about so the spouse doesn't know about it, and so on. In any event, I think they may do this to try and keep people spending their money in their auctions/sales. PWCC gets their main income from sales commissions, and the vault and holding people's funds for them can help to keep consignments and customers flowing to their site and sales, and away from Ebay and other AHs/online sellers. No factual hard evedence, but I think it does make the most logical sense as to why they may be doing it.

[glynparson]

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it’s always easier to just call them names.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by glynparson

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it’s always easier to just call them names.

Right. If you can't tell if it's been altered in an attempt to deceive versus damaged as a result of storage, I think you should err on the side of calling it altered.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by glynparson

People
Were
Using the screw downs often in conjunction with c clamps to smash and fix corners So that was in effect alterations there is no way for them to tell
When it was used to smash bumped corners and square up and when was just left too long in an over tightened screwdown. There is a legit reason for what they are doing,o but it’s always easier to just call them names.

Wasn't there also the notion that by clamping a card down in a screw down holder that along with making it thinner, it would also make it taller and wider because of the flattening? And this would allow someone to slightly trim the edges, yet still have the card meet the proper size dimensions. If that is true, it can add a slightly different twist to the argument of altered versus damaged in this case.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by BobC

Wasn't there also the notion that by clamping a card down in a screw down holder that along with making it thinner, it would also make it taller and wider because of the flattening? And this would allow someone to slightly trim the edges, yet still have the card meet the proper size dimensions. If that is true, it can add a slightly different twist to the argument of altered versus damaged in this case.

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

Soak stretch and trim.

[hcv123]

Originally Posted by bnorth

It is 100% true. I needed a Ted Williams to complete a set. A fellow member and long time friend sent me a PSA 7 or 8 can't remember to finish the set. My set is ungraded so I cracked it out. In the slab it looked good. Once I cracked it out it was beyond obvious it had been seriously pressed and trimmed. The card was way thinner and kinda hard/stiff from being compressed.

I guess that was one of the few they missed. (Read with sarcasm).
To me there is an obvious simple solution - they have all these different "altered" designations - just add it to the "altered" slab so everyone can see the alteration they are claiming - just the way they do numeric grades. Altered - trimmed, altered - colored, altered - sat in a screw down too long, etc.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by hcv123

I guess that was one of the few they missed. (Read with sarcasm).
To me there as an obvious simple solution - they have all these different "altered" designations - just add it to the "altered" slab so everyone can see the alteration they are claiming - just the way they do numeric grades. Altered - trimmed, altered - colored, altered - sat in a screw-down to long, etc.

Exactly. Just put the N-1 or N-5 code or whichever one applies on the flip. At least inform people of what they think the issue is.

Unfortunately though, this probably only makes a difference with really high-end cards that often get counterfeited and thus pretty much have to be in slabs to get sold. Something like a 52T Mantle. Because I think we all know what happens to 'Authentic' slabs for everything else.

The only cards I recall ever getting back from PSA that said "Evidence of trimming" were ultra-modern cards that I pulled from packs myself. I wish I knew what they thought they saw with those cards. I didn't think to set them aside or examine them though. I don't even recall which cards they were now. I just remember rolling my eyes and chalking it up as a loss.

I bought a 1956 Topps Jackie Robinson card from an older gentleman in his 80s last year. He had had the card in his possession since 1956. He watched his cousin pull it from a pack and then traded him for it shortly after. It has been in his collection ever since. A couple years ago, someone advised him that he needed to have his cards graded if he wanted to sell them, but he didn't have any experience grading cards. So he sent them off to get graded with the help of a friend. The Jackie card came back rejected with "evidence of trimming". He was pretty frustrated since he obviously knew it had never been trimmed, as it was in his possession the whole time. So he sent it in again and it came back as "evidence of trimming" again. He was furious at this point. I knew he was telling me the truth when I asked about the card. He could have just sold it raw and not mentioned it, but he was an honest seller. I thought the provenance of the card was pretty cool, and I love stories like that, so I made him a generous offer that he was pretty happy about. He said he'd send me the "evidence of trimming" flips along with the card, which he did. Once I recieved it, I examined it super closely. The top and bottom edges were smoother than the side edges upon inspection, which is probably why PSA rejected it, but anyone who collects this set and examines the edges closely knows that this isn't abnormal. And the smoother edges were far from smooth. They still had completely normal chipping and were consistent with all of my other 1956 Topps cards. So, I sent it to SGC because they're more competent than PSA, and it came back in its proper SGC 5 holder as it should have. The card isn't for sale, and probably won't be until I've passed. I love the card too much and the story that comes with it to let it go. But it does raise an interesting question about its provenance going forward. If I were a dealer setting up a booth at a show and talking to people face-to-face, selling that card, I would probably bring the rejected PSA flips along with it and include them with the sale of the card and pass along the fun story to the next buyer. That's part of the joy of the personal sales relationships at a card show. But if I were selling it on something like MySlabs.com, that's just not an option. Or even if I were selling it on eBay, I probably wouldn't even bother with it. Some of this stuff just gets lost in the digital space the hobby now resides in. Those personal stories that connect someone to a card just don't translate as well online sometimes. The funny thing is though, some people would claim that it would be deceitful or dishonest to sell it without divulging that PSA mistakenly thought the card was trimmed prior to SGC saying it wasn't and giving it a number grade. But I felt as though I had every reason to believe the guy I bought it from, and I know that PSA is just guessing half the time anyhow, so their opinion holds near-zero weight to me with respect to this card.

As I said, the card isn't for sale, and will probably get passed on to my kids one day, but it provides for an interesting debate with respect to how people view the responsibility of a seller for passing along information like this. I even remember people on Blowhard trying to get eBay sellers reported and banned because they found out that a seller was listing a card as raw that had previously been listed in a PSA 8 holder. As is often the case, he didn't agree with PSA's grade so he cracked it out. But for some reason, some percentage of the hobby believes that once a card gets slabbed, that borderline arbitrary number grade assigned to it is now somehow part of the card itself and the two cannot divorce. I think I'll refer to them as Catholic cards in the future. Personally, I don't think it's dishonest at all to crack a card out of a slab. I do it often. I know how to grade cards. If I get a bullshit grade, I'll crack it out and either resubmit it or send it to a different TPG. Very rarely do I get the same grade twice.

[Snowman]

And since every thread needs a card, I figure I might as well post a few of my fun pickups from this monthly auction.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Snowman

There's an example in the casino memorabilia collectibles hobby that I think parallels either where this hobby currently stands or is at least destined to land. There are a lot of people who collect casino chips, myself included. Every year in Vegas, there is a chip convention, which is their equivalent of the National (albeit much smaller). Extremely rare and valuable chips trade hands at dealers' booths just like cards do at sports card conventions. The main difference is that casino chip collectors have rejected the slabbing of casino chips by a TPG. However, a chip's overall condition still affects the value of a chip. But in that hobby, nearly everyone cleans their chips if they are dirty. There are countless forum threads or YouTube videos teaching people how to clean their chips, and everyone in that hobby discusses it regularly. I have an ultrasonic cleaner that I'm constantly loaning to friends who use it to clean the chips in their collection. I've even made videos for people about how to do it. Some ignoramus over at Blowhard even attempted to "call me out" as a conman by linking to it on Blowhard, saying "see, he even alters casino chips!" as if anyone cares. But in that hobby, not only are people ok with cleaning their chips, nearly everyone prefers it. A chip's value is determined by how much wear the chip has, not whether or not it has been cleaned (or "altered" as some baseball card enthusiasts would charge). However, every year at the chip convention there is this one dealer who sets up his booth and announces with pride to any prospective buyers that his chips haven't been cleaned, unlike all the other chips at the convention and are thus in their "orginal" state and untainted. He boasts this as a point of pride and prices them at a premium over his neighboring dealers because in his eyes, that makes them worth more. He's the only one left out of a small handful of chip dealers over the years who still thinks this way. Nobody else in the hobby gives two shits about it though, and if they buy a chip from him (which almost nobody ever does because his prices are too high) then they're just going to roll their eyes as they overpay and then take the chip home and clean it before adding it to their display case at home. It's pretty funny. Whenever I read through the comments on the Blowhard forums, I always picture that guy with his dirty chips yelling at clouds. I bet he wants to turn the everyone else in to the cops for committing "fraud" with their cleaned "altered" chips that nobody else even thought about disclosing because nobody cares.

If any of you ultra purists want a sneak peek of the future of this hobby, just fly into Vegas the 3rd week of June next year and head on down to the South Point Casino to check out the chip convention and look for our friend. You can't miss him. He's the guy with the dirty chips and no one standing in front of his booth.

If a card has been altered and looks mangled, the market will adjust for it. If someone gets scammed by a counterfietter or by someone recoloring or rebacking a card, there are legal recourses they can pursue. If a card has been altered but that alteration cannot be detected, then what difference does it make? If you don't trust the opinions of the TPGs, then you don't have to play that game. Feel free to buy and sell everything raw and trust your own judgment. The TPGs are just trying to render an opinion and the hobby has chosen to value those opinions. They're just people like you and me though at the end of the day. They're not infallible. It doesn't make them criminals just because people can "sneak one past the goalie", or even if they can "sneak one past the goalie" with regularity. They're just offering opinions. Hell, it doesn't even make the person who altered a card a criminal. If you honestly think that a court of law is going to find someone guilty of a crime because they bought a baseball card, cleaned it, and then resold it for more money, I think you're delusional. When someone does this in the casino chips collection hobby, it's called a "cleaning fee", and people are happy to pay more for chips that have been cleaned. If some dumbass tries to clean a chip by tossing it in a bucket of Clorox Bleach, then they're going to ruin that chip and its resale value will be greatly affected as a result. Same with this hobby. If someone tries to clean a card with some magic potion of harsh chemicals that end up ruining the card, then the market value of that card will plummet, slabbed or unslabbed. People don't like washed out looking cards any more than chip collectors want washed out looking chips. But if you still want to complain because when is able to clean a card safely, without the use of harsh chemicals, restoring it to its original state before little Billy spilled his hot cocoa on it then you've just become the old man yelling at clouds. It also doesn't make the TPGs immoral or incompetent because they couldn't detect that the card was cleaned. But if you think you can detect all these alterations with your eagle eyes, then go start up the BODA grading company where you can research every submission for 2 hours straight, scouring the internet for possible matches before giving it the BODA seal of approval (that is, until the 'before' photo later surfaces... oops, now what?). Maybe you can get a nifty little sticker to put on it like Mike Baker does? Perhaps it will demand a premium? (I know where I'll place my bets on that wager). But if you don't like the opinion of a TPG, then just get another one or don't get one at all. Who cares? At the end of the day, it's just a card. But most of us value their opinions a lot more than 'jumpinJimmy123' on eBay who lists his VG 3 cards as "near mint" on eBay. But that doesn't mean I'm buying a PSA card blindly just because it's in their holder. I'm still going to examine it for myself to see if it meets my standards.

Travis, fascinating post. Next time I go to Vegas, I will be looking at my poker chips in a whole new light. What is the the most valuable/sought after chip around?

[Steve D]

Regarding the previous posts about where they ship your cards once you pay for them..........

Based on a post I read here last month, I changed, with their chat system help, my default address (or so I thought), and had the cards I won sent to me. I got them with no problem.

Well, this month, I bid on, and won one card (a card that I never even knew existed, for one of my Top-4 favorite players). I just went and paid for it, and afterward, realized that the price paid was the basic bid. I guess this means my one $14 card is now going into my non-existent/never used vault "account".

So, take this as a warning.......

If you bid and win, and you want to actually get your winnings sent to you, you apparently need to specify that fact EVERY SINGLE MONTH, with EVERY SINGLE PAYMENT! Apparently, you cannot just change it once, and have that set as the default; it will always default back to the vault.

Personally, I feel that this it far too much of a hassle, to have to repeat it every single time you pay for something.

Steve

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Yoda

Travis, fascinating post. Next time I go to Vegas, I will be looking at my poker chips in a whole new light. What is the the most valuable/sought after chip around?

My recollection was that chips from the original Vegas casinos, going back to the '50s, that have long since closed and are gone, would normally be valued the most. And of course the chip's marked denomination would play a factor in its collectible value as well. Usually, the higher the chip denomination, the higher the collectible value.

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by BobC

My recollection was that chips from the original Vegas casinos, going back to the '50s, that have long since closed and are gone, would normally be valued the most. And of course the chip's marked denomination would play a factor in its collectible value as well. Usually, the higher the chip denomination, the higher the collectible value.

Ya, the higher denomination chips from some of the older casinos are typically worth the most. It's all about rarity and of course, demand. But there aren't any chips, that I'm aware of, that command 6 figure or 7 figure prices. I suppose there might be one I'm unaware of, but most "expensive" chips are in the $1,000 to $10,000 range. I only know of a couple chips that would exceed that range.

[mrreality68]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Ya, the higher denomination chips from some of the older casinos are typically worth the most. It's all about rarity and of course, demand. But there aren't any chips, that I'm aware of, that command 6 figure or 7 figure prices. I suppose there might be one I'm unaware of, but most "expensive" chips are in the $1,000 to $10,000 range. I only know of a couple chips that would exceed that range.

Nice problem to have back then

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Regarding the previous posts about where they ship your cards once you pay for them..........

Based on a post I read here last month, I changed, with their chat system help, my default address (or so I thought), and had the cards I won sent to me. I got them with no problem.

Well, this month, I bid on, and won one card (a card that I never even knew existed, for one of my Top-4 favorite players). I just went and paid for it, and afterward, realized that the price paid was the basic bid. I guess this means my one $14 card is now going into my non-existent/never used vault "account".

So, take this as a warning.......

If you bid and win, and you want to actually get your winnings sent to you, you apparently need to specify that fact EVERY SINGLE MONTH, with EVERY SINGLE PAYMENT! Apparently, you cannot just change it once, and have that set as the default; it will always default back to the vault.

Personally, I feel that this it far too much of a hassle, to have to repeat it every single time you pay for something.

Steve

Change address in system…not a one time thing.

Click address to ship to you after winning auction. Defaults to vault but its literally the box below. There’s even a box below that to have it shipped to a completely different address…this is probably what was done last month since you couldn’t figure it out yourself and needed customer service involved.

It’s simple.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by notfast

Change address in system…not a one time thing.

Click address to ship to you after winning auction. Defaults to vault but its literally the box below. There’s even a box below that to have it shipped to a completely different address…this is probably what was done last month since you couldn’t figure it out yourself and needed customer service involved.

It’s simple.

Well, I just "chatted" with Robby at PWCC, and he said there is no way to permanently update your account to have auction winnings automatically sent to you. The default is to the vault; and you have to go in every time you pay your invoice, and change the default to your own address. This will have to be done every single time, as the default never changes from the vault; you are just temporarily changing it to your own addres, from the vault, on a one-time basis.

Steve

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, I just "chatted" with Robby at PWCC, and he said there is no way to permanently update your account to have auction winnings automatically sent to you. The default is to the vault; and you have to go in every time you pay your invoice, and change the default to your own address. This will have to be done every single time, as the default never changes from the vault; you are just temporarily changing it to your own addres, from the vault, on a one-time basis.

Steve

LOL, quality customer service at its finest.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by mrreality68

Nice problem to have back then

It is kind of like collecting old coins or currency. A $100 silver certificate is actually still worth $100 straight up if you actually went to use it at a store. A $1 silver certificate would only be worth $1 at the store. So you already had a built in price differential just from the value of the currency itself. Plus, fewer $100 silver certificates are likely still around as compared to $1 ones, so you'd also have a rarity factor adding to the collectible value difference.

And casino chips were just a substitute for actual money used by the casinos that originally issued them. So like actual currency, you'd expect fewer large denomination chips to have been created than those of lower denomination chips, and thus expect fewer larger denomination chips would still around today.

One huge difference between chips and currency is that when a casino closed, the chips they issued would lose their intrinsic monetary value since you couldn't cash them in for money anymore. But at the same time, someone wanting to keep a momemento from a Vegas trip would be much more likely to hang on to a $10 chip than say a $!,000 chip. So the rarity of higher value chips from closed casinos surviving till today was further enhanced. Not cashing chips in before a casino closed would be like throwing money away.

Interesting fact. Back when gambling and casinos were pretty much only legal in Neveda, I believe it was the state's commission that oversaw all the in-state casinos and somewhat monitered the chip production. As such, each and every chip issued by all the Neveda casinos had to have a completely unique chip pattern and/or color scheme. That was another way back then to help insure you couldn't take chips from one casino and get away with using them at another. Since they've opened up gambling and casinos pretty much around the entire country, not sure if there is some national register still requing this for all casinos now. I'm guessing the casinos nowadays at least clearly mark their names, and probably locations as well, on their chips to differentiate them from those of all other casinos.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, I just "chatted" with Robby at PWCC, and he said there is no way to permanently update your account to have auction winnings automatically sent to you. The default is to the vault; and you have to go in every time you pay your invoice, and change the default to your own address. This will have to be done every single time, as the default never changes from the vault; you are just temporarily changing it to your own addres, from the vault, on a one-time basis.

Steve

And I'll bet that little fact is not prominently posted somewhere on their site for all to see, on purpose. For all the somewhat intelligent business decisions and moves they seem to have made over the years, I wonder if this may not end up being one of their much lesser liked ones. It seems fairly obvious their goal is to funnel more people to using their vault, but by not even allowing your customers to permanently disable that feature, I can see them losing some business over it. If you should in the future see them suddenly adjust this policy/feature somehow, I would suspect it to be from getting a lot of flak from customers and/or a drop in business attributed to this policy of theirs. From a business standpoint, what with them getting kicked out of Ebay and then starting their own online platform, you'd think they'd want to make the transition for their customers and consignors as easy, simple, and similar as possible, at least to start out with.

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by BobC

And I'll bet that little fact is not prominently posted somewhere on their site for all to see, on purpose. For all the somewhat intelligent business decisions and moves they seem to have made over the years, I wonder if this may not end up being one of their much lesser liked ones. It seems fairly obvious their goal is to funnel more people to using their vault, but by not even allowing your customers to permanently disable that feature, I can see them losing some business over it. If you should in the future see them suddenly adjust this policy/feature somehow, I would suspect it to be from getting a lot of flak from customers and/or a drop in business attributed to this policy of theirs. From a business standpoint, what with them getting kicked out of Ebay and then starting their own online platform, you'd think they'd want to make the transition for their customers and consignors as easy, simple, and similar as possible, at least to start out with.

While I agree it may not be the most user friendly setup, someone previously posted that all you have to do to have your winnings shipped to you is click a different radio button right below the default option for the vault. It doesn't sound like they made it that difficult to change the shipping location so when you check out, you just have to spend a few seconds and remember to do it.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by jayshum

While I agree it may not be the most user friendly setup, someone previously posted that all you have to do to have your winnings shipped to you is click a different radio button right below the default option for the vault. It doesn't sound like they made it that difficult to change the shipping location so when you check out, you just have to spend a few seconds and remember to do it.

Yes, but then they also said you can't just make that your default to have it sent to your home going forward. Why not? I would guess a majority of their customers when on Ebay had no desire to use their vault. So why suddenly seem to shove it down their throat that they're now going to use the vault unless they remember to opt out each and every time you purchase something from them? I know it isn't necessarily a big deal, but think of it as something like where you're registered as a buyer with some seller, and when setting up your account already gave them your shipping address and credit card info. But then every time going forward where you win something from that seller you have to re-enter your address or CC info over and over again. Though as I said, it really isn't a big deal, can still see it annoying some people to the point they do less (or even no) business with that seller going forward because of it, especially when no other sellers out there are making their customers do any of that.

[Republicaninmass]

Probably just leave better deals to all the authentically sanctimonious pwcc followers.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by jayshum

While I agree it may not be the most user friendly setup, someone previously posted that all you have to do to have your winnings shipped to you is click a different radio button right below the default option for the vault. It doesn't sound like they made it that difficult to change the shipping location so when you check out, you just have to spend a few seconds and remember to do it.

It is a very roundabout setup to change the shipping address.

You cannot just click on the pay button, go to your invoice, and change the address. No, you have to go the ended auction, click on your winning items, click on one of the specific items, and then go in and change the address for that particular shipment. The next month.....you have to do the same thing; and every month after that.

Steve

[jayshum]

Originally Posted by Steve D

It is a very roundabout setup to change the shipping address.

You cannot just click on the pay button, go to your invoice, and change the address. No, you have to go the ended auction, click on your winning items, click on one of the specific items, and then go in and change the address for that particular shipment. The next month.....you have to do the same thing; and every month after that.

Steve

I haven't experienced it myself so I was just going on what someone had previously posted which made it sound pretty simple. If it's not then I agree it may turn people off from buying from them (those who are still willing to at this point).

[Peter_Spaeth]

It could just be chance because I don't have THAT many searches set up, but it seems to me the past few weeks more Probstein items are coming up than ever before. Perhaps some consignors have moved on from PWCC?

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It could just be chance because I don't have THAT many searches set up, but it seems to me the past few weeks more Probstein items are coming up than ever before. Perhaps some consignors have moved on from PWCC?

That's what I'm saying. We all know most people don't like change, and PWCC appears to be practically shoving change down everyone's throat. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Probstein grow tremendously as they may be the closest thing to the dearly departed PWCC/Ebay experience that used to be out there. Depends a lot on how well Probstein picks up the slack (and treats former PWCC consignors).

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by BobC

That's what I'm saying. We all know most people don't like change, and PWCC appears to be practically shoving change down everyone's throat. Wouldn't surprise me at all to see Probstein grow tremendously as they may be the closest thing to the dearly departed PWCC/Ebay experience that used to be out there. Depends a lot on how well Probstein picks up the slack (and treats former PWCC consignors).

Assuming his legal status doesn't change, we'll see where Brent is in a couple of months in terms of how many consignors and bidders and vaultees if that's a word stick with him.

[BobC]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Assuming his legal status doesn't change, we'll see where Brent is in a couple of months in terms of how many consignors and bidders and vaultees if that's a word stick with him.

LOL

Will be interesting.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Steve D

Well, I just "chatted" with Robby at PWCC, and he said there is no way to permanently update your account to have auction winnings automatically sent to you. The default is to the vault; and you have to go in every time you pay your invoice, and change the default to your own address. This will have to be done every single time, as the default never changes from the vault; you are just temporarily changing it to your own addres, from the vault, on a one-time basis.

Steve

Like I said before in this thread, when you buy something from a website there always is a “button” with some default shipping method. This is no different.

It’s not some hidden option. It’s literally a check box that you select that is highly visible on the invoice page. It’s easier to click than when you have multiple shipping addresses on PayPal.

I know everyone hates PWCC justifiably but whining about THIS makes no sense to me.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Steve D

It is a very roundabout setup to change the shipping address.

You cannot just click on the pay button, go to your invoice, and change the address. No, you have to go the ended auction, click on your winning items, click on one of the specific items, and then go in and change the address for that particular shipment. The next month.....you have to do the same thing; and every month after that.

Steve

This is just wrong. You’re making it way too hard.

Go to your marketplace account. Change address. Confirm address change.

Then when you get an invoice, you will have the main selected option of the vault (like everyone) and directly below that you will have the box with your address that it can be shipped to.

I’ve bought 4 different invoices worth of stuff over the last two auctions. At no point did I have to change my address, talk to customer service etc.

[tschock]

Nevermind. Answered.

[Steve D]

Originally Posted by notfast

This is just wrong. You’re making it way too hard.

Go to your marketplace account. Change address. Confirm address change.

Then when you get an invoice, you will have the main selected option of the vault (like everyone) and directly below that you will have the box with your address that it can be shipped to.

I’ve bought 4 different invoices worth of stuff over the last two auctions. At no point did I have to change my address, talk to customer service etc.

My mailing address in my marketplace account is correct!

The "submission address" (whatever that is) is the vault. There is no way to change that. I tried to "edit vault account", but it does not give me the option of changing the submission address; it only allows you to change the mailing address (which as I said, is correct). I'm looking at it as I'm typing this.

Also, when I have gone in to pay my invoice, from the invoice page, it DOES NOT give me the option to change any address. That is why I had to contact PWCC through their chat system to figure out what was going on. They are the ones who told me the only way to do it, is by going into one of the auction lots I won, and clicking on the mailing address instead of the vault. PWCC is also the ones who told me that this has to be done EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU PAY!

So I stand by what I said previously.

Steve

[mintacular]

Originally Posted by JimmyArcher

In addition to the Cicotte that I didn't end up winning, I also bid on a cheap 1989 Topps set. Received an email last night stating I had won with a bid of $10, and similar to the example above, I received my invoice this morning and the bid total was showing as $12.

$12 just happened to be the max bid I had entered.

And to answer the question about bid history, I haven't been able to find a bid history for either the auctions I lost or the auction I won.

I think this got buried in the lede, PWCC is now auctioning off $10 '89 Baseball Sets? My have the mighty have fallen....

[Snowman]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

It could just be chance because I don't have THAT many searches set up, but it seems to me the past few weeks more Probstein items are coming up than ever before. Perhaps some consignors have moved on from PWCC?

I think this is likely true of all the major consignment companies. There are simply far more total card sales on ebay in recent months than ever before. The entire hobby continues to grow. But yes, I'm sure much of PWCC's volume went to Probstein.

[notfast]

Originally Posted by Steve D

My mailing address in my marketplace account is correct!

The "submission address" (whatever that is) is the vault. There is no way to change that. I tried to "edit vault account", but it does not give me the option of changing the submission address; it only allows you to change the mailing address (which as I said, is correct). I'm looking at it as I'm typing this.

Also, when I have gone in to pay my invoice, from the invoice page, it DOES NOT give me the option to change any address. That is why I had to contact PWCC through their chat system to figure out what was going on. They are the ones who told me the only way to do it, is by going into one of the auction lots I won, and clicking on the mailing address instead of the vault. PWCC is also the ones who told me that this has to be done EVERY SINGLE TIME YOU PAY!

So I stand by what I said previously.

Steve

If this is true, you are having a one off issue.

You 100% do not have to change address every time you pay for something, item by item, to not send it to the vault.

Edit - Like I’ve said before, when you look at your marketplace account…you will see your “submission address” which is the default shipping option which is the vault. Directly below that is your mailing address. It shows this exactly the same way on the invoice…so you just check the mailing address box and it is shipped to you.