Stunning quote on altered cards

[Peter_Spaeth]

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

[jingram058]

Nice cards there, Leon!

[Exhibitman]

So, as in many other aspects of life, size matters?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

The SGC 60 shown is way oversized. I like the 7 better. And it too has larger borders than most other cards like it I have compared it to, and I have compared it to a lot of them.

[3-2-count]

For the record, I like the 7 better too Leon.

[Peter_Spaeth]

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

[CobbSpikedMe]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

I was thinking the same thing today. I guess it's just something we all knew already and it's not as shocking as it should be at this point.



.

[DeanH3]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

Unfortunately I think this is too accurate.

fatties?

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

It’s sad people don’t care they just show their cards off instead lol again it really is all about they money. I guess to many big important people own cards for them to have a massive scandal about altered cards, investor groups manipulating sales, and or a whistleblower coming out from the inside exposing would cause a major hit to the value of the industry.
Money talks.

Card doctors, shillers, and flat out crooks in this industry are like athletes foot, they’re a fungus that keeps coming back and never fully goes away.

[skelly423]

I take a different view to the quote. It's one man's opinion, but he doesn't speak for the hobby at large, and I don't think he's saying anything that isn't common knowledge. It has been well known that grading companies don't have a great track record with altered cards, including the most famous card in the entire hobby, the Gretzky/McNall Wagner.

I don't have to accept altered cards in my collection (and won't), and I have probably passed on legitimate examples in my efforts to avoid doctored cards. To me the holder and assigned grade are a helpful guide, but I revert back to the same old maxim; buy the card, not the holder. Regardless of what the slab says, if I'm not sure the card is original and unaltered, I don't buy.

[tiger8mush]

Trimming is likely the most common alteration for altered cards, but that generally isn't what I fear ... its the touch-up recoloring and rebuilding corners etc that are difficult to catch in a scan (let alone in person).

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

SMH that this thread got essentially no traction. I guess we're so numb at this point...

There's really no new news here, considering the source of this quote. I've commented on this fiasco repeatedly since the "scandal" broke. Sadly, it seems to make no difference.

I completely agree with the "lack of traction" aspect, but am afraid that the silence exhibited by most people on this forum is the result of them not wanting to admit to owning/selling altered cards.

Dealers, Flippers and grade-bumpers all adore PSA and will continue to defend them (or simply say nothing), despite the mountain of evidence that continues to accumulate. Most of these are obvious alteration jobs that any novice would have caught. There are now thousands of examples in numbered slabs, including those that PSA has reviewed and confirmed the grade... No conflict of interest there

I just pray that someday we discover the truth... whether it is PSA's ineptitude or that they are compliant in this disgrace with their favored submitters. Hopefully the FBI is still building its case, and karma will ultimately prevail. Then we will really have something to talk about.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by perezfan

There's really no new news here, considering the source of this quote. I've commented on this fiasco repeatedly since the "scandal" broke. Sadly, it seems to make no difference.

I completely agree with the "lack of traction" aspect, but am afraid that the silence exhibited by most people on this forum is the result of them not wanting to admit to owning/selling altered cards.

Dealers, Flippers and grade-bumpers all adore PSA and will continue to defend them (or simply say nothing), despite the mountain of evidence that continues to accumulate. Most of these are obvious alteration jobs that any novice would have caught. There are now thousands of examples in numbered slabs, including those that PSA has reviewed and confirmed the grade... No conflict of interest there

I just pray that someday we discover the truth... whether it is PSA's ineptitude or that they are compliant in this disgrace with their favored submitters. Hopefully the FBI is still building its case, and karma will ultimately prevail. Then we will really have something to talk about.

My best guess at this point is that PSA and BGS over time made a deal with the devil, that is they tried to find a space that was manageable between still performing some screening function for hatchet jobs on the one hand and on the other hand not alienating completely the card doctors who were their biggest customers and who, after all, provided many of the cards most visible in the marketplace that pumped up the brands and the hobby. If it weren't for BODA I think that middle ground would have been much less visible to the average collector. SGC, different analysis, I'll keep that one to myself.

[Yoda]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I like that one MUCH better than the PSA 7.

I like them both.

[MattyC]

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab. Plastic surgery, so to speak.

That said, reading this thread reminds me though why I will always hold onto my 52 Topps Mantle— because I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the lovely gentleman who pulled it from the pack in the summer of '52, and who later had it graded.

Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

[Exhibitman]

Look, debating whether a trim is an alteration (it is) or damage (it is) is pointless, as is assuming none of our cards are altered because we are all such studs at recognizing alterations. We aren't. I also don't think there is more of a tolerance of alterations today than 30 years ago. Frankly there is more scrutiny of card grades now than ever before because of the money. My first 1952 Bowman Mantle cost me $3.25; if someone did some work on that, no biggie, I can shrug it off. My current card cost me a ton more. If that one was worked on I'd be pissed because I can't just shrug off that level of loss.

[swarmee]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab.

But why will a person pay hundreds of thousands for a PSA 10 price on something like the '86 Michael Jordan, when a NM-MT+ looking PSA AUTH or PSA AUTH ALTERED can be bought for under $5,000?
Saying the buyers don't care is BS. They may be in on the scam, but they don't just want the card in the holder, they want the fake grade on the label more than the card.

BTW, I noticed that PSA is now hiding the Cert number in their Auction Prices Realized tool. Watch the page loading video I just shot and notice that the Cert column is there while the page is loaded, but disappears when the page is fully rendered. Why get rid of that?
https://photos.app.goo.gl/zVEr9UCFw9XLUYqp7

[SD]

Originally Posted by MattyC

I see an increasing amount of collectors out there 40s to 20s who are okay with a card having been improved. They just want it to look great and be in the slab. Plastic surgery, so to speak.



That said, reading this thread reminds me though why I will always hold onto my 52 Topps Mantle— because I had the pleasure of making the acquaintance of the lovely gentleman who pulled it from the pack in the summer of '52, and who later had it graded.



Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

About 10 years ago I was able to get 30 33 goudeys from a very old gentleman and his family. He claimed he unpacked every one of them and knew which cards where packed together.

Through mostly commons, they hold a higher value to me because of the origin. Included was these 2 beauties.

DSC07151.jpgnewjpg01-29-21 03-52-38.jpg

Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk

[AustinMike]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Just one collector's opinion, for me to be able to trace a card's origin like that from pack to my hand adds value that cannot be quantified (though buddies have certainly tried to quantify it and buy it from me, LOL). I think very few graded old cards have a lineage that a collector can look at and prove the card was never improved.

Many ebay sellers provide a lineage for the cards they're selling - "given to me by my grandpa," "left to me by my grandpa," "found in my grandpa's attic after he passed away," etc. Not all provided lineages have the same weight.

[MattyC]

Sup Mike! Trust all is good with u. So true forgot about that classic ebay description— they love to use it on reprints especially lol!