1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

Pat— Have there been editions subsequent to that one ?

I haven't seen any Al, I just looked on amazon and ebay and that's the most
recent edition I could find.

[ALR-bishop]

The first time I was required to either edit a comment or include my name involved a post in pre war opining that Don Fluckinger had messed up the first Standard Catalog he handled after Bob’s retirement 😊

[tedzan]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

I have not kept my oldest versions of the Standard Catalog but do keep the 2011 issue because it was the last one that included post 80 issues. As Ted mentions it does list it as a 49 issue. My newest Catalog is 2014, which may have been the last print edition, edited by Tom Bartsch. It also lists it as 49

I lost a good friend and and hobby lost a great resource when Bob Lemke passed

Hi Al
You and I have the same Standard Catalog editions (2011 and 2014). Here is the Copyright date and the 1949 LEAF listing in the 2011 issue (the 2014 edition is exactly
the same....1949 LEAF.

.




Furthermore, here is the Beckett 1998 edition, which confirms the information I provided in Post #342 in this thread.

.

Originally Posted by tedzan

Jim Beckett contacted me in 1997 regarding the 1949 LEAF set. Jim started identifying this set as a 1949 issue in
his 1998 BECKETT Baseball Card Price Guide.

Prior to 1998, Beckett listed this set as a 1948/1949 issue.



TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Hi Al
You and I have the same Standard Catalog editions (2011 and 2014). Here is the Copyright date and the 1949 LEAF listing in the 2011 issue (the 2014 edition is exactly
the same....1949 LEAF. . . .

Furthermore, here is the Beckett 1998 edition, which confirms the information I provided in Post #342 in this thread. . . .

Ted, there is no question about many miscalling the issue date of the Leaf set as 1948 and not 1949, nor of the efforts you have undertaken to try to straighten it out since the last century.

My question here in this Bond Bread thread is, "What do any of us do about what OldCardboard says about "1947 D305 Bond Bread" cards ( https://oldcardboard.com/d/d305/d305.asp?cardsetID=1003 ) and what Sports Collector's Digest now says in its August 2, 2020 edition about the same cards ( https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ines-1947-set/ )?

[tedzan]

OK guys,

Al Richter and I have provided sufficient evidence with Jim Beckett's and Bob Lemke's BB card publications that confirm the 1949 LEAF date has been listed
in their Catalogs as far back as 1998.
Furthermore, these publications also confirm the LEAF HOFer Premiums as a 1949 issue even before 1998. And, it was known back then that the LEAF cards
and HOFer Premiums were issued in the same vendor boxes. PSA and SGC could have corrected their egregious mistakes at least 22 years ago.


Here is my 2005 Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball Cards (by Bob Lemke).

.


TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Al and I have provided sufficient evidence with Jim Beckett's and Bob Lemke's BB card publications that confirm the 1949 LEAF date has been the standard since 1998.

Today, PSA in the "Facts" section of its website ( https://www.psacard.com/cardfacts/ba.../1948-leaf/144 ) states:

"The 1948 Leaf Baseball set consists of 98 cards, each 2-3/8" by 2-7/8". Key athletes include Joe DiMaggio (#1), Babe Ruth (#3), and Stan Musial (#4). The set is also anchored by diamond heroes Luke Appling, Larry Doby, Bobby Doerr, Bob Feller, George Kell, Ted Kluszewski, Hal Newhouser, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, Phil Rizzuto, Enos Slaughter, Warren Spahn and Ted Williams, as well an evocative tribute to Honus Wagner (#70). Although only 98 entries were produced for the Leaf set, its cards actual numbers spanned between 1 and 168. The Leaf baseball production was the first major issue of its type to use skip-numbering, wherein the cards' consecutively numbered entries when fully assembled and complete failed to yield a correspondingly complete run of card numbers. Forty-nine cards are considered "Short Prints," including such lesser players as Johnny Wyrostek and Eddie Joost. Among the most desirable pieces is an error card - #102 Gene Hermanski – that exists without the letter "i" in his last name. This card is among the famous and sought-after of all postwar error cards, as are the Full Sleeve (standard) and Short Sleeve (error) versions of Cliff Aberson's card, #136."


According to its website, to date, PSA has graded some 25,724 cards as "1948 Leaf," including some 1,362 Jackie Robinson's.

You would think that one of the owners of these more than one thousand Jackie Robinson cards would have asked PSA to correctly attribute the card. Or is the apparent failure to ask for a correction more driven by a fear the card may lose value because they are not a "rookie" card?

Mike

[Exhibitman]

Meanwhile the portrait card is catching up to the Leaf card, priced to condition:

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Meanwhile the portrait card is catching up to the Leaf card, priced to condition:

The portrait card is far better looking than the leaf, the portrait is exceptional and depicts the true robinson. Vastly under-valued card in comparison to the leaf especially figuring in the much lower pop. Might not be the most popular (yet) but it will catch up and likely pass the leaf over time.

[Mike Eisenbath]

Gentlemen, I respect your knowledge and opinions very much, so I'd like to ask your advice. I have a strong emotional affinity for Stan Musial. I'd really like to own a 1947 Bond Bread Musial. A ROUNDED-CORNERS Musial, of course. But I'm suspect of a couple I've seen that they could be altered versions of a squared-corners one. Is there history of this happening? With PSA not touching those cards, I find only SGC-graded cards. Should I trust completely those cards are legit? If I look at a raw card, is there a giveaway on alteration? Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by investinrookies

The portrait card is far better looking than the leaf, the portrait is exceptional and depicts the true robinson. Vastly under-valued card in comparison to the leaf especially figuring in the much lower pop. Might not be the most popular (yet) but it will catch up and likely pass the leaf over time.

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Mike Eisenbath

Gentlemen, I respect your knowledge and opinions very much, so I'd like to ask your advice. I have a strong emotional affinity for Stan Musial. I'd really like to own a 1947 Bond Bread Musial. A ROUNDED-CORNERS Musial, of course. But I'm suspect of a couple I've seen that they could be altered versions of a squared-corners one. Is there history of this happening? With PSA not touching those cards, I find only SGC-graded cards. Should I trust completely those cards are legit? If I look at a raw card, is there a giveaway on alteration? Thank you!

Sent from my SM-G970U using Tapatalk

The "rounded-corners" are not exactly round, but were die-cut and can generally appear suspect because of the crude nature of the die-cutting. At the moment, not too many of the "squared-corners" have been trimmed to look as if they are "rounded" ones. For the moment, that should not be your biggest concern.

The real issue is whether the card is an actual Bond Bread package insert card or whether it is a virtually identical lookalike from the "rounded-corner" Sport Star Subjects set.

Those participating in this thread have not come to a consensus as to the date of issue of the Sport Star Subjects set. A few doubt whether the Sport Star Subjects set ever existed with "rounded-corners."

If you see a Musial card you like, take it on its face value. I am of the opinion that the very high grade Stan Musial cards available today (whether graded or not) are generally not Bond Bread cards but are from the round-corner Sport Star Subjects set.

Mike

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

half a million for a PSA 8?
your gonna have to elaborate on that logic? If that's the case these beaters are a steal at current prices

[Exhibitman]

I dunno about the market stuff, I just know that the recent research on this very site proved that the portrait w/facsimile sig was indeed a 1947 issue handed out in advance of the others. It also happens to be a very nice looking card. it also was (emphasis on the past tense) an affordable card in the lower grades at least. Is a card in a high numbered slab worth a ton? Find one, auction one, and let's see where it lands. Should it supplant the FUGLY 49 Leaf as the top dog Robinson card? Who knows? The Leaf is iconic in the Hobby; an earlier, nicer card may be the RC but at this point it is not going to diminish the allure of the iconic Leaf. Facts are for little people, not icons. If we have to explain why this card is better than the Leaf the fight is already lost.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by investinrookies

half a million for a PSA 8?
your gonna have to elaborate on that logic? If that's the case these beaters are a steal at current prices

In the late 1980's, a contrived rule of thumb was that each increase in grade doubled the price of a graded card. Thus a 2 was worth twice a 1, a 3 worth twice a 2 (4 times a 1), a 4 twice a 3 (8 times a 1) and so forth. This arbitrary "rule" continues to dictate the asking prices of many graded cards. The rule was applied in conjunction with catalog prices where you considered the MT price for an ungraded card as a graded 5, then doubled it with each grade increase from 5.

For example, the 1988 Standard Catalog prices the 1985 Mark McGwire #42 rookie card at $11 in MT. If that's the value of the card when graded as a 5, then a 6 is "worth" $22, a 7 $44, an 8 $88 and so forth.

During that time, many sought to project what a card would be "worth" by applying the doubling the grade formula to price lists for ungraded cards routinely produced in weekly and monthly baseball card publications. Those seeking to profit from such "insider" information drove the prices further out of proportion.

[Added a little after the original post.]

So to spell it out, if the PSA 1 pictured above is worth the asking price of $3,950 and you apply the old doubling rule, i.e. a 2 would be worth $7,900, a 3 $15,800, and so forth. Thus using this arbitrary rule, an 8 would be worth about half a million.

Today, most of the cards the rule was applied to in the 1980's have falling far short of their expected value.

One should appreciate the fact that the lowest grade possible is a 1. While a dog with both ears can receive a 1, one missing an ear still can get the same 1 grade.

Obviously it was only graded so someone could say, "See, it's authentic." A card that beat up is only grading so it can be sold, and not collected. Anyone buying it should look at it and not at its holder, or they'll fail to recognize the card as merely the space filler it is.

[vansaad]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Was that last week's price? Prices have gone up a lot more since. Here's a scan of a card I found on eBay today (08/31/2020):



Priced at $3,950.00. I wonder how much the missing piece of the card would cost?

Of the 111 Jackie Robinson (Portrait with facsimile autograph) cards PSA has graded, some 81 of them are better than a PSA 1, including 3 at PSA 1.5.

The card you pictured is twice the condition (graded a 2).

Investors take note: perhaps the market is trying to say a PSA 8 is worth a half a million? And that's perfectly logical when comparing the relative scarcity of the 13 cards in the set one to another.

At one time, all 13 were "rookies." Now some cannot hold that claim.

PSA's total population report for all 13 cards in the set is 321 cards graded.

The hundred-eleven Portrait (with facsimile autograph) cards are over one-third of all of these 13 cards PSA has graded.

And of course, as the picture in this post shows, others card grading services are also active in grading them.

The SGC 8.5 (highest overall graded) is currently at auction with Heritage. Don't suspect it will go for $500k, but already the highest auction price for a Robinson Bond Bread at $27k+ and growing.

[oldeboo]

It looks like decent PSA 1s(without corners missing) are selling in the 1.5-2k range on Ebay. Stating the obvious, but asking price on Ebay means absolutely nothing. I agree that this is an under appreciated and perhaps under valued card though.

[investinrookies]

Originally Posted by vansaad

The SGC 8.5 (highest overall graded) is currently at auction with Heritage. Don't suspect it will go for $500k, but already the highest auction price for a Robinson Bond Bread at $27k+ and growing.

interested to see where this one ends...over 31k now continues to climb

[tedzan]

For those of you who are just tuning into this thread.....I am reprising my story here from when I initially posted this thread in April 2009. It appears to me that I may be
the only one on this forum who collected these B/W cards directly from Bond Bread packages. When school started in the Fall of 1947, we (kids) packed our BOND BREAD
cards into our lunch boxes. These cards were really popular in our neighborhood in Hillside, NJ. By trading our cards with each other during lunch period, and sharing info,
we figured out that a complete set comprised of 48 cards (44 baseball and 4 boxers).

Flash forward to 1977......I recovered my original collection of BB, FB, and Non-Sports cards from the attic of my folks home. My Mom and Aunt stored them there while I
was away in the Air Force. Included in this "treasure" were 43 of these BB cards. The 4 boxing cards were missing (probably traded them). Forty-two of the BB cards were
in their original Excellent condition. The Berra was Vg. And, the Jansen was missing. I recall upgrading the Berra card and acquiring the Jansen in the early 1980's.


Finally, in my opinion, the Jackie Robinson card (depicted here) is the legitimate Rookie card of him (in a Major League uniform). The 48 cards in this set were issued in the
Spring/Summer of 1947, prior to any of the cards of the special 13-card issue dedicated to Jackie Robinson.


P.S.....There must be others on this forum who collected these 1947 BOND BREAD cards directly from the bread packages. I don't think I'm the oldest dude on this forum.
So, please chime in here, it would be really appreciated. Perhaps we can compare our experiences from 70 years ago. One thing neat about an "aged mind".....it can recall
events from long ago better than most recent events.









TED Z

T206 Reference
.

[abctoo]

Thank you for reposting your story and pictures. I'm just a little younger than you and like you say, it's easier to remember things from 70 years ago than what may have happened over the past 6 months.

Having lived most of my life in Oakland, California (since 8 days old being born in San Francisco), I have no young childhood memories of Bond Bread cards nor much of Major League Baseball. The Giants and Dodgers didn't get to the West Coast until 1958.

We had Sunbeam (Remar) Bread and other cards cards for the Oakland Oaks (Pacific Coast League). In the early 1950's Mother's Cookies inserted cards into cookie packages (and they often came out with cookie stains). To us, the Pacific Coast League was one of the "Big Leagues."

You're Jackie Robinson card is a beaut!

There's much discussion above your last post about the 13 Bond Bread Special Giveaway cards, particularly what many call the set's "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card.

It is my understanding that the "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card was released in 1947 after the Bond Bread package insert card you picture.

Just to be sure everyone is on the same page, is that correct? If so, the Bond Bread package insert card would be Jackie Robinson's first baseball card.

It is true that the first picture of Robinson as a professional player was published as an insert the year earlier in the August 14 or 16, 1946 Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper after his historic meeting with Branch Rickey. That insert is about 10 inches tall and pictures Robinson in his Montreal Royals minor league uniform before he became a "Big Leaguer" in 1947.

Mike

[Leon]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Thank you for reposting your story and pictures. I'm just a little younger than you and like you say, it's easier to remember things from 70 years ago than what may have happened over the past 6 months.

Having lived most of my life in Oakland, California (since 8 days old being born in San Francisco), I have no young childhood memories of Bond Bread cards nor much of Major League Baseball. The Giants and Dodgers didn't get to the West Coast until 1958.

We had Sunbeam (Remar) Bread and other cards cards for the Oakland Oaks (Pacific Coast League). In the early 1950's Mother's Cookies inserted cards into cookie packages (and they often came out with cookie stains). To us, the Pacific Coast League was one of the "Big Leagues."

You're Jackie Robinson card is a beaut!

There's much discussion above your last post about the 13 Bond Bread Special Giveaway cards, particularly what many call the set's "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card.

It is my understanding that the "Portrait with Facsimile Autograph" card was released in 1947 after the Bond Bread package insert card you picture.

Just to be sure everyone is on the same page, is that correct? If so, the Bond Bread package insert card would be Jackie Robinson's first baseball card.

It is true that the first picture of Robinson as a professional player was published as an insert the year earlier in the August 14 or 16, 1946 Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper after his historic meeting with Branch Rickey. That insert is about 10 inches tall and pictures Robinson in his Montreal Royals minor league uniform before he became a "Big Leaguer" in 1947.

Mike

I like those Montreal Parade Sportive Newspaper inserts....

.

[Exhibitman]

Parade Sportives are great. I have a couple of Joe Louis and two of Maurice Richard from early in his career.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Parade Sportives are great. I have a couple of Joe Louis and two of Maurice Richard from early in his career.

Are the Parade Sportives on cardstock or paperstock? Thanks, Mike

[investinrookies]

anyone else notice the golden auction? A PSA 6 Robinson portrait already up to 19k with 4 days left. PWCC just sold a PSA 6 a little over a month ago that went for $15,388. Looks like this card is starting to take off, the question now is not if but when will it catch up to the leaf?

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Are the Parade Sportives on cardstock or paperstock? Thanks, Mike

Paper, but higher quality than newsprint, similar to Police Gazette premiums.

[LincolnVT]

Not 1947, but still a cool set. Sorry, was trying to post a picture of my 9 card 1958 Bond Bread "Casey Jones" set, having trouble loading the picture. Maybe tomorrow.

[abctoo]

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by rdwyer

Too bad there's no date on it.

I do not remember the exact date but I know I received mine between 90-92. I was a contractor stationed in Thule Greenland AFB and had subscribed to the monthly card subscriptions.

I still have that exact “set” in the holders that they sent them to me in, along with their identifier.

I’d be happy to post pictures but this thread is somewhat dated. I came here years ago while looking for additional info on them. I finally got off my butt and registered this passed weekend.

Cheers,

Butch

[Leon]

Originally Posted by tedzan

Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948.
The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth.

TED Z

T206 Reference
.

Very nice, Ted. I finally picked one up. Shown once before but still apropos...

[Exhibitman]

Mine:

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

Mine:

In my opinion, both your card and Leon's posted just above it are genuine 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards even though they appear to be slightly different because of the amount of ink impressed.

Both of these two cards have creases and other wear that clearly does not make them near mint.

I base my opinion that these two are Bond Bread inserts on my belief that most of the high grade Robinson cards of identical appearance come from the Sports Star Subjects sets that were issued in packets that protected them from such wear.

My view is controversial because many swear the Sports Star Subjects sets were issued in 1949-1950, and thus its Jackie Robinson card and some others would not be “rookie” cards. However, there are those who have responded to this thread (and elsewhere) who state they obtained packets of the Sports Star Subjects set with “rounded” corners like the Bond Bread package inserts in 1947 (and others who state they received packets with “square” corners in 1947).

The 48 card Sports Star Subjects set was issued in four series of different packets of 12, with each packet having two varieties. The difference is the imprint on the back of the packets. Some read “W.S.” / “N.Y” while others have that inscription clearly obliterated. Other than being identified with the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets, no one responding to this thread was aware of who W.S.N.Y was until an association was made with the similarity in packaging of the “Navy Ships” / “Airplanes” set (W673) for which advertising in 1950 publications was located. The “Navy Ships” packets are printed with “A.J. Wildman & Son, New York” on the back. Thus the Sports Star Subjects (and the related Screen Star Subjects) sets were assumed to be issued about 1950. The contents of the “Navy Ships” set does indicate it could not have been issued earlier than Winter of 1949 as the newest ship/plane card in the set is the Martin XB-51 1st Prototype shown as a drawing that is virtually identical to the real photograph taken of its first flight on October 28, 1949.

What was missed was what was started to be discussed on the vintagecards website in 2011 and subsequently about “W.S.,” “W.S.N.Y.C.,” “A.J. Wildman New York,” and related sets. The association to the 1939 “Generals & Their Flags” set with “ © W.S. 1939, N.Y.C. ” printed on the back (and the anonymous 1936 sets of “American G-Men”) and other "W.S." sets from 1938-1942 was beginning to be drawn, as it had not been previously addressed in the ACC or other card catalogs.

The additional information about W.S. issuing cards long before 1947 challenges the assumption that the Sports Star Subjects set (that is identical to the 1947 Bond Bread package insert cards) was issued in 1949-1950. W.S. had been issuing a variety of sets of cards from more than 10 years before Bond Bread's 1947 issue.

We do have two distinct issues: 1947 Bond Bread package inserts and the Sports Star Subjects set. The cards though, are virtually identical. Since there are statements from various collectors of have received the Sports Star Subjects and Screen Star Subjects sets in packets in 1947, it appears to me that it is incorrect to assume those sets were not issued until 1949-1950.

That raises the issue of whether the Jackie Robinson and other cards of those sets are “rookie” cards, but from another set, and then again, which was issued first. The Bond Bread cards were not released until after the start of the 1947 baseball season. The other sets were sold in places like Macys and on newstands.

We know these baseball cards from either set were popular back then. Bond Bread issues tens of thousands of each player in bread packages for at least 6 months (and perhaps until the start of the 1948 baseball season). The second set of Sports Star Subjects packets with the “W.S.” / “N.Y” obliterated is indicative of that popularity and the need for more supply. We have found that W.S. was having issues before World War II with the printing of sets (unresolved during the War) that may have caused its name identification to be obliterated for a period of time after the War, and are working on resolving the dating issues.

There are other sets (non-sports sets) issued post-WWII through 1950 that came in the same style of packages as the Sports Star Subjects, Screen Star Subjects, and “Navy Ship” sets. Some indicate other publishers while others indicate none. I would appreciate it if anyone who has such a packet would send me a picture in a private message or post it in this thread.

Thanks,

Mike

P.S. [added 4/18/2021] Ted's pictures in this thread of the original 1947 Bond Bread cards he obtained back then suggests he has the highest condition Jackie Robinson and other cards that can be proven to be part of the 48 card set that actually came in Bond Bread packages. The fact that several grading companies placed similar looking cards in slabs they labeled as "1947 Bond Bread" package inserts, particularly those with higher grades, does not establish which of the various similarly looking sets the slab's enclosure came from.

[YankeeHotelFoxtrot]

I just had an Enos Slaughter returned from SGC as a fake

I was sad about it. Got it at my local card store for like 10 bucks so was worth the chance

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by YankeeHotelFoxtrot

I just had an Enos Slaughter returned from SGC as a fake

I was sad about it. Got it at my local card store for like 10 bucks so was worth the chance

Square or round corners?

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by butchie_t

I do not remember the exact date but I know I received mine between 90-92. I was a contractor stationed in Thule Greenland AFB and had subscribed to the monthly card subscriptions.

I still have that exact “set” in the holders that they sent them to me in, along with their identifier.

I’d be happy to post pictures but this thread is somewhat dated. I came here years ago while looking for additional info on them. I finally got off my butt and registered this passed weekend.

Cheers,

Butch

Member "butchie_t" sent me a CD-Rom with high resolution scans of the front and back of all 24 Festberg remainders, plus the tag the Baseball Card Society sent with them in December 1989. I'm working on sizing them to post here on net54baseball.

We all - much thanks to our new member.

Mike

[UKCardGuy]

Thanks for this thread.

I recently picked up a lot of 7 "1947 Bond Bread cards" fairly cheaply. (I also got a couple of 1948 Kelloggs Pep cards with the lot).

Based on this thread, I think only my Sheldon Jones is a true Bond Bread with the others being Sports Star Subjects.

[Exhibitman]

Seems about right.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by wastewater

See attached for some movie stars. I thought the back was interesting as I hadn't seen the 46 cards mentioned before like this. The Hess reference looks to be a stamp added after printing.

Posted in this thread, Post #48, 06-08-2009, 05:22 pm



ELGEE is Louis Greenberg & Son, Inc.. The company originally incorporated in New York in 1929. It wholesaled sundry products to specialty and variety stores ("dime" stores), often labeling them as “AN ELGEE PRODUCT,” as it did the card set often misdescribed as "Bond Bread Perforated Cards." In 1964, it trademarked a special logo containing its initials, “LGS.”









One of their very popular products was "ELGEE MINIATURES," similar in boxing to "Matchbox" vehicles but made in cheaper plastic.



Each of the two sheets in the set had 24 cards, that's 48 sides. Since two adjoining cards had half of the set description shown above on back, only 46 sides contained "assorted subjects" of Sports, Hollywood or Cowboys. Thus, the indication of "46 subjects" shown on each sheet. With two sheets being made, that a total of 92 sides of cards with pictures of subjects plus 4 sides with set description for a total of 96 sides, or 48 cards. Here's a well known example of one of the descriptive backs with a cowboy on the other side.



The picture appears to be that of Randolph Scott in "The Desparadoes" (1943).

[Added June 1, 2021] Louis Greenberg & Son imported products in bulk and printed and manufactured their own packaging for both foreign and domestically produced products. They had the capabilities to print their perforated "Sports, Hollywood, Cowboys" set.

If anyone has an Elgee Product list , price sheet or invoice from any time period; it may help identify their numbering system, other card sets they made have issued, as well as provide a guide to dating. Thank you.

Copyright 2021 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521

[Schlesinj]

I am sure this is a dumb question, but when looking at SGC Pop report when you look up 1947 Bond Bread, which sub-category is the rounded corner listed as or is it just listed without a sub-category? I am assuming it is the version with 55 listed.

https://www.gosgc.com/pop-report/res...Bread/Baseball

[abctoo]

Good Question. I just checked the PSA website for an answer. I could no longer find in either PSA's population report nor its price guide a Bond Bread set with 55 graded cards (or 57 cards as I seem to remember). They now list only the "1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson" 13-card set with 333 cards graded and a set they call the "1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual Sided." The perforated set is the ELGEE set produced by Louis Greenberg and Son discussed above and has nothing to do with Bond Bread. What has PSA now done with the regular 48 card sports set that Bond Bread inserted into bread packages?

[itjclarke]

Originally Posted by abctoo

Good Question. I just checked the PSA website for an answer. I could no longer find in either PSA's population report nor its price guide a Bond Bread set with 55 graded cards (or 57 cards as I seem to remember). They now list only the "1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson" 13-card set with 333 cards graded and a set they call the "1947 Bond Bread Perforated Dual Sided." The perforated set is the ELGEE set produced by Louis Greenberg and Son discussed above and has nothing to do with Bond Bread. What has PSA now done with the regular 48 card sports set that Bond Bread inserted into bread packages?

I don't think PSA has been grading these for years.

[Schlesinj]

Actually, I believe it was listed as Portrait with a population of 44.

[Exhibitman]

So, who got the sheet in Lelands?



And when you bust it up I am interested in Cerdan.

[abctoo]

That photo from Leland's got me to start trying to reconstruct the other sheet. When I first saw it, I asked the same question. Apparently the sheet was the basis for a single Jackie Robinson Leland sold. I too would like to know what happened to the other cards. Those may have been the group of graded singles that excluded the Robinson sold individually on another website in 2019 with each lot having a starting bid of $20. Most sold for less than $50. One received no bid at all, though one brought over $200. Since that auction, a dealer on eBay has been listing most of those (same PSA numbers) continuously with an asking price of $200 or more each. One now is at $2,500. That dealer has not been offering the Marcel Cerdan.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

So, who got the sheet in Lelands?



And when you bust it up I am interested in Cerdan.

I misspoke as I assumed the Elgee sheet you pictured was the one that started me on the Louis Greenberg & Son quest. I looked at it again and noticed the writing on the set description backs of the cards as shown in your pictures. The sheet I initially saw had no writing. When I checked my records, I found the sheet I had seen was from a picture in a 2015 Sterling Auction.

I compared the images of the two, and while they are identical sheets printed from the same plates, they are not the same sheet. Most obvious is that on your sheet, Marcel Cerdan's elbow is not cut off at the margin, while it partially is on the sheet I saw. The perforations did not cut the cards in the same places, with almost a millimeter difference in alignment.

Great news. Where the sheet or its individual cards are, who knows, but we all can see another Marcel Cerdan. Sure would like to see a picture of the second sheet or any part of it.

[Corflu]

I am having frustration in that Beckett, PSA, and SGC all have returned my Jackie Robinson square cornered card and will not grade it. No explanation was offered as to why they declined. My best guess is they do not know how to categorize it. They did not charge me, so I know it is not a fake. From the thread on Jackie my best guess is...

This is not a 1947 Bond Bread card
This might be from the Festberg collection
This is most likely part of the 1949 Sports Star Subjects packs.

Since they can always grade the centering and quality of the card I am guessing the issue is they do not want to call it a 1947 Bond Bread card. Though I have seen SGC and PSA grade similar cards and call them bond bread.

I would like one of these companies (or someone similar) to certify the quality level of the card. I would appreciate ideas on how to proceed to get this graded, and which of the potential cards groups to submit this under. Please help! Pictures of the front and back are below.

[abctoo]

Originally Posted by Corflu

I am having frustration in that Beckett, PSA, and SGC all have returned my Jackie Robinson square cornered card and will not grade it. No explanation was offered as to why they declined. My best guess is they do not know how to categorize it. They did not charge me, so I know it is not a fake. From the thread on Jackie my best guess is...

This is not a 1947 Bond Bread card
This might be from the Festberg collection
This is most likely part of the 1949 Sports Star Subjects packs.

Since they can always grade the centering and quality of the card I am guessing the issue is they do not want to call it a 1947 Bond Bread card. Though I have seen SGC and PSA grade similar cards and call them bond bread.

I would like one of these companies (or someone similar) to certify the quality level of the card. I would appreciate ideas on how to proceed to get this graded, and which of the potential cards groups to submit this under. Please help! Pictures of the front and back are below.

Unless some grading service arbitrarily assigned a name to your card, none would grade it.

From your scan it cannot be said if it is from:

1. The Sport Star Subjects square card set issued in boxes with W.S.N.Y printed on the back of the box. [W.S.N.Y. is AJ Wildman & Son, whose first issues were the 1936 W.S.N.Y. American G-Men horizontal and vertical sets.]

2. The Sport Star Subjects square card set issued in boxes with W.S.N.Y. obliterated on the back of the box. [With W.S.N.Y. obliterated, the issuer remains unknown, although like the unobliterated set, the cards and boxes were printed by Meyercord.]

3. The London Dry Beverage set but missing the London Dry rubberstamp on the back.

4. The Festberg Remainders. But it has yet to be definitively determined whether those remainders are of Sport Star Subjects Sets, London Dry or some other set(s)?

The card is authentic. Why do you need it graded?

Mike

P.S. In Post 383 above (dated 4/29/2021), I indicated that member butchie_t had provided detailed scans of all of the cards of the Festberg Remainders and that I would post them. I am working my best as time permits to post them along with additional scans that should help clarify which cards are the remainders. Thanks for your patience.

[Corflu]

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I am not sure why some of these square cards have been graded in the past where you say none would do this. Maybe they have just learned over time on Jackie. I am not sure where to go from here, maybe nowhere.

As for why to have it graded I am surprised you would ask. Which would you rather have?

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card with no grade
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 2 card
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 7 card

Grading authenticates that a vintage card is not fake and also the relative quality of the card. Also the marketplace will let you know the value others place on them via these ratings and that all cards are not created or valued the same.

[butchie_t]

Originally Posted by Corflu

Thanks for the feedback, Mike. I am not sure why some of these square cards have been graded in the past where you say none would do this. Maybe they have just learned over time on Jackie. I am not sure where to go from here, maybe nowhere.

As for why to have it graded I am surprised you would ask. Which would you rather have?

1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card with no grade
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 2 card
1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA grade 7 card

Grading authenticates that a vintage card is not fake and also the relative quality of the card. Also the marketplace will let you know the value others place on them via these ratings and that all cards are not created or valued the same.

Each card in your example are easily identified as being issued from Topps and in 1952. Having any of the three would be a fantastic item to own.

Not being able to definitively identify that the card you submitted to three different grading companies should tell you all you need to know about that card and the subsequent set. I would really like the cards that I have to be Homogenized Bond Bread cards. But there are way too many variables for me much less a TPG to definitively answer that question.

I now believe my card set is likely from The Festberg Remainders and they are cool, old and mine. As to a catalog number to associate them too, I doubt greatly that will ever happen.

As to why some TPGs did grade some of those cards, it was early in their grading experience and mistakes were made. As you can see now, they learned and will not grade them any longer.

[Johnphotoman]

I was in printing for a very long time...That being said, The cards would have been printed first and then go to the bindery departed to have them round -corner. So the cards from the 80s could have never made it to be round-corner. Just set in the warehouse waititng. This is just one more think to think about.
Those that were printed in 1949, the stock or say paper could have been changed. I believe the design was changed on the stock and square-cornered... to note the two different years' offer., 1947 and 1949.

[jason.1969]

I've learned a lot from this discussion and have one question

Am I correct from the information posted that what PSA has listed as 1947 Bond Bread Exhibits are really just from the 1949 Sports Stars issue?

Screenshot 2021-12-10 101443.jpg

Thanks,
Jason

[Vintagedeputy]

At the risk of dredging up the old argument, I recently acquired these three cards in an auction. After reading a few pages of this thread, can I assume that these are in fact from the 1949 Sports Stars set? Is that the general consensus now?