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Curve Ball.
With just 84 more hits in 2012 (of 2769 Career): Johnny Damon would have joined Hank Aaron and Derek Jeter; as the only players in MLB history to have at least 130 hits in 17 consecutive seasons. A true mark of a consistent and excellent hitter. But alas, only 16 consecutive seasons; "17" truly was The Number. I am not introducing this for debate or analysis; just a statement of baseball stat fact. Last edited by benge610; 06-29-2021 at 02:40 PM. Reason: Added, "MLB" to "history" |
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I think if Nap Rucker had the good fortune to come up with the Giants rather than the Dodgers, he would be in the Hall.
__________________
___________________ T206 Master Set:103/524 T206 HOFers: 22/76 T206 SLers: 11/48 T206 Back Run: 28/39 Desiderata You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the stars; you have a right to be here. And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is unfolding as it should. With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams, it is still a beautiful world. Strive to be happy. |
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Brian |
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abothebear must have been hungry when he made that list....
David |
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During college days it sure seemed to me that Steve Garvey was a lock for the Hall. 1974 thru 1980.... then everything tapered off... and for a while. Maybe we were paying more attention to baseball and Garvey's production during those 7 years, and then not so much to either afterwards; leaving us with the idea that he must have been the same old 'batting 4th, Garvey' for those subsequent years.
I wonder if us seeing the Dodgers so competitive, making the playoffs, during the last half of the 70s, if that has us remembering him as better than he was. I understand that I'm in a tiny minority about Ed Reulbach. Seems to me that there's considerable agreement about a few players getting in, and then a bunch of Hall of Very Good players. Minoso, Damon, and others fit better in the HofVG, in my mind. |
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Went through each name and sorted them by what I think their category is. Added some new ones, ignoring steroid guys as the argument against them has nothing to do with objective discussion of performance or ranking among pioneers, but is a purely ethical argument that seems a separate issue from the analytical arguments.
Players I would vote for as a no-brainer, whose exclusion from the Hall is a detriment to the Hall Ross Barnes James Creighton Minnie Minoso Curt Schilling Players I would vote for and think clearly belong, but see a reasoned argument against: Bill Dahlen Gil Hodges Jeff Kent Kenny Lofton Fred McGriff Players I could go either way on, borderline yes or borderline no: Dick Allen (not mentioned yet) Albert Belle Lance Berkman (not mentioned yet) Ken Boyer Pete Browning Bob Caruthers Rocky Colavito Pebbly Jack Glasscock (not mentioned yet) Tommy John Jim Kaat - Poor ERA compared to league, lots and lots of consistent innings Don Mattingly (surprisingly not mentioned yet) Jim McCormick (not mentioned yet) Tony Mullane (not mentioned yet) Tony Oliva Dave Parker Cannonball Redding - what I have seen of his surviving numbers seems to me to suggest he is not a HOFer, but the numbers from his leagues are incomplete and dubious. Luis Tiant George Van Haltren Lou Whitaker Players I think are below Hall standards but I see how a reasonable argument could be made: Tommy Bridges Dave Concepcion Johnny Damon Carlos Delgado Larry Doyle Jim Edmonds Darrel Evans Dwight Evans George Foster Steve Garvey Kirk Gibson Bob Grich Dummy Hoy Andruw Jones Johnny Kling Sherry Magee Thurman Munson (not mentioned yet) Dale Murphy Lefty O’Doul - Japan & PCL has never before been a factor for consideration. Buck O’Neil - Nostalgia in and of itself is not enough. Billy Pierce Vada Pinson Ed Reulbach - short career and his peak is not high enough to compensate Johann Santana Dave Stieb - About equal to Morris, but let’s not make that mistake twice. Joe Wood Players for whom I do not see a reasoned argument, are not serious candidates: Jack Coombs - 2,300 IP and an ERA worse than the league average. 1 excellent season is not a HOFer Mike Donlin Johnny Grubb - This must be a tongue in cheek joke Chet Lemon- This must be a tongue in cheek joke Firpo Marberry Clyde Milan - No HOF milestones, 9% better bat than league, good player but there is no way he is HOF Lance Parish Dummy Taylor - Less than 2,000 IP, 116 wins, ERA 7% better than league. Over 100 pitchers belong ahead of him. Cecil Travis - Would be first player elected to the Hall of Fame specifically for what he did not accomplish rather than for what he did. Last edited by G1911; 06-29-2021 at 04:06 PM. Reason: Forgot Damon |
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Mention of Mattingly and Garvey make me think another thread - “Guys who felt like Hall of Famers during their careers, but now are unlikely to be inducted”.
Guess you’d need to specify “non-steroids addition” to keep the list of reasonable size. Garvey, Mattingly, Murphy…maybe Joe Carter? |
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And if they fail to make it to Cooperstown in the future, definitely Joe Mauer and Buster Posey (looking ahead). Last edited by perezfan; 06-29-2021 at 04:57 PM. |
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I remember reading the term “Al Oliver Abyss” describing the gap between 2700 career hits and 3000. |
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Okay, here we go:
Gil Hodges - Sorry, folks, this one's a no-brainer. No logic, facts, or stats other than cruelty can justify why he isn't already in. Stan Hack - Another one that I just don't understand. Is it just because he played for the Cubs? Great third baseman. Riggs Stephenson - Crazy batting average, and wildly popular Cub, but punished for his weak, football-injury throwing arm. Charlie Grimm - The Cubs list could go on and on. This man was a baseball ambassador, beyond being a great player, and yes, also manager of some very competitive, because of him, but not so great teams. Cecil Travis - Great, versatile ballplayer for a dreadful Senators team, then suffered the misfortune of not just being in the Army during WW2, but suffering frostbite in combat during the Battle of the Bulge, which effectively wrecked his baseball playing career. And he was never bitter about it. Those fellows above I feel quite strongly about. The fellows below get an "Honorable Mention" from me on the strength of crazy accomplishments: Frankie Crosetti - Waved more men home while coaching at third than anyone in history, and player and coach on 23 World Series teams. Johnny Vander Meer - If he never did another thing, he gets mention just for throwing 2 consecutive no-hitters. Just imagine someone doing that. Pete Rose said it best, "Someone might tie that someday, maybe, but no one will ever break it. No one is ever going to throw 3 consecutive no-hitters." Pete's obviously not going in, but I love him anyway. Bucky Walters - Just didn't truly dominate as a pitcher long enough, but what a great story of his conversion from average third baseman to, for a few years, overwhelming pitcher at the hands of another guy you hear nothing about, Jimmy Wilson. |
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__________________
Always collecting Pirates from the early 1900's thru the early 70's. Completed - 1967 Topps Baseball, 1969 Greiner Tires Pirates, 1964 Topps Giants, 1967 Topps Test Stickers - Pirates Also looking for a 1970's Spalding Advisory Staff photo of Richie Hebner. |
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For the first few years of his career Joe Mauer was considered a lock.
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I will still say that Mauer is getting in. It is strictly because of what he did behind the plate. In the history of the game there have been a total of 6 Batting titles won by a catcher. Bubbles Hargrave, Ernie Lombardi x2, and Buster Posey all have one. All were National League Catchers. Mauer has 3 himself and is the only American League Catcher to accomplish this feat. His MVP Award, Silver Slugger Awards, and Gold Gloves all add to him being the best all-around Catcher of his time. His induction will likely be later in his candidacy, but he's going to go in on the basis of what he did behind the plate as he did things no other catcher had ever accomplished.
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As a midwest Cardinal fan, Garvey was famous, but became infamous for stealing the MVP from Lou Brock in 1974. Murphy was a 2 time MVP, and benefitted from the boom in cable TV, led by Ted Turner, owner of the Braves. Mattingly, MVP and Yankee legend, back injuries slowed him down. Parker was an MVP, and famous for 2 great throws in an all star game, plus on one of the legendary teams, We Are Family 1979 Pirates. If the 1984 Tigers had been able to sustain that greatness, rather than just that 1 magical year, I think Lou Whitaker (who should be in anyway, and Lance Parrish (not sure on him) would also be in. I'd put these guys pictured in the HOF. |
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By Coincidence this article just came out today after I mentioned Delgado yesterday. Us canucks think alike lol. Make sure to check out Kevins blog hes fantastic
https://cooperstownersincanada.com/2...-huminatarian/ |
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There are players who are “famous” who aren’t inducted, and players who aren’t famous are in. “Fame” is subjective and changes - many players were famous in their time but are no longer. I think the key is that sometimes it’s hard to know if a career is a hall of fame one until it’s over or almost over. Look at a guy like Adrian Beltre…10 years into his career, few thought he’d be a hall of famer. Now he’s a likely first ballot lock. |
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How about Schoolboy Rowe, Doc Cramer, Gary Sheffield, Todd Helton, Jim McCormick, Billy Pierce & Mickey Lolich?
Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk |
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Roger Maris, strong argument could be made he still owns the single season`s (and possibly all sports) most historical number, 61.
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H Murphy Collection https://www.flickr.com/photos/154296763@N05/ |
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Clemens and Bonds?
Its my understanding that over half the league is thought to have been using PEDs at the time, which MLB knew about but did nothing to stop. Pitchers faced hitters on PEDs, hitters faced pitchers on PEDs. MLB started serving suspensions for PED usage in 2005; Bonds & Clemens finished their careers playing 2005 and 2006 and 2007 (in their 40s) w/o a suspension. Both were SOOO dominant, their stats are just crazy. And they faced opponents who were also on PEDs. How many years have pitchers been doctoring the ball with spider tack and other substances, which is against MLB rules, but was never stopped until now? None of the Astros lost their stats nor rings for cheating and many of those same coaches and players are still playing today. Many old timers, including HOFers, have admitted to (or been accused of) cheating in one way or another. I was on the fence in the past, but am leaning towards induction for them both. Thoughts?
__________________
Collection on Flickr: https://www.flickr.com/photos/139478047@N03/albums |
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Vada Pinson was every bit as good as Clemente
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Tony Biviano |
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Good article. I also wonder how Hodges would have performed in the pitcher's era of the 1960s.
https://halloffameindex.com/2019/09/...-vs-norm-cash/ |
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Opening packs with the ol' man! "Woo-Hoo!", whenever a Mauer was pulled. Good Times; even bought him a Mauer jersey prior to our HOF Inductions at Cooperstown. Time passes and so does our focus; kinda lost track of Mauer's career. Thank you Brad. Ben |
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Real question is, is the hall of fame a history of the greatest performers during there era, regardless of character flaws or the writers way to only elect players they enjoyed being around.
Should Integrity and humility really have a place in the hall? Or should it only be based on numbers. Does the era played truly get taken into account? If so, the steroid era is no different then any other era of baseball. All had rule breakers trying to get an advantage. Was steroids really much different then players intentionally fixing games, doctoring balls or belittling another player based on ethnicity? All, knowingly cheated or showed lack of integrityans can be easily found in the hall. If so, Rose, Bonds, Clemens, Schilling and McGwire all are deserving. Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk |
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Last edited by Mark17; 06-30-2021 at 10:29 AM. |
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What I was meaning to say above is there is a lot of players in the hall that have been accused of cheating and still got in.
So do all those players now get an asterisk? Clemens and Bonds have denied their use. So if they get in, asterisk? Or do we embrace the steroid era and accept that it was sort of baseballs fault for not dealing with it in the 90s. MLB teams will always push their players to push the boundaries of whats legal. Technology has just help expose the cheating in the game after it helped those players get an advantage. Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk |
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At the end of the day, the one guy not in that seems totally idiotic that he isn't is Gil Hodges. Go ahead and ignore this, and yack ad-nauseum or write a PhD dissertation about this guy, that guy, the other guy, whatever. The Hall of Fame has lost credibility big-time over the past few years over some really bad decisions, and you can't explain, ignore or deny it away. Perception is reality. I used to think I really wanted to visit Cooperstown, but as Dylan said, things have changed.
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Sent from my SM-A716U1 using Tapatalk |
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I'm fine with steroid guys getting in, or being kept out, but the standard should be the same for all of them. Ortiz has thus far seemed to get a complete and total pass in the public eye while no other popped user has. If he gets in first ballot, and I think his odds are fair, while Bonds and Clemens at best languish, it will be an even bigger joke than electing Harold Baines. |
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. |
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If a pitcher doctors the ball or a hitter is gulping greenies by the handful to really sharpen their edge in various ways, you usually don't see a thing. But on the flipside, what's more noticeable than Bonds and McGwire turning into highly bulked up action figures at the plate (and then hitting 70+ homers in a season to smash a decades-long record)? |
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Any love for Bobby Mathews and his 297 wins? Three more and it would not have been a discussion. He was done by 1900 and has a terribly forgettable name. He probably didn't stack up against the best of his era, but he sure racked up a lot of stats, though the teams he played on were wonky. Once netted 625 innings in a single season.
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This assures an apples to apples comparison. This is not to say Mathews is not a hofer. I have no problem with his worthiness. |
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It is possible than cammb and I are now friends....
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Don Mattingly and Kirby Puckett have nearly identical numbers and at no time ever did anyone say Puckett was the best player in the game. Mattingly was the best player in the game for a period in the 80's.
Mattingly should be in.
__________________
Harry Wolter collector |
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Hof
How about Keith Hernandez? 11 Gold gloves, close to 300BA, mvp, batting title, clutch hitter and 2 rings. Not to mention a hilarious announcer!
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As an aside, I believe Mathews finished either second or third in this year's voting, which was won by Charlie Bennett. Mathews was included on my ballot. |
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Mattingly had 2 top 3 finishes, 4 total top 10. Last edited by Mike D.; 06-30-2021 at 04:00 PM. |
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Wow…talk about different time. Mattingly had over 7,700 plate appearances…and struck out fewer than 450 times!
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Glasscock should be elected just so we can say the HOF has Glasscock and Dickey
I have been a big "Lefty" proponent for years, so all I can add to this thread about him are some of his Japanese cards from the 1949 Tour: 1949 O'Doul Bromide with "Big Lebowski" Betto and Wakabayashi O'Doul and HOF Japanese Manager Shinji Hamazaki
__________________
Read my blog; it will make all your dreams come true. https://adamstevenwarshaw.substack.com/ Or not... Last edited by Exhibitman; 06-30-2021 at 04:32 PM. |
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15xAS....... 4xAS
12xGG....... 1xGG 1 MVP....... 0 MVP 1 WS MVP....... 0 WS MVP 2 WS Champ....... 0 WS Champ 4 BA Champ....... 0 BA Champ Those two are not remotely close. Last edited by rats60; 06-30-2021 at 04:34 PM. |
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Thank you!
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