Here we go yet again -- alleged trimmed and recolored CJs at auction

[jchcollins]

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

[sb1]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by sb1

Coins have had rampant problems as well, with forgeries from S.E. Asia, fake slabs, lasered enhanced Gold coins and many more for the last two decades.

I think this is just something we have to deal with then in the post modern hobby. The desire for high grade cards, (even if not truly high grade) in macho numbered holders has proven that it's going to win out thus far over grading integrity in all cases. I see little incentive for that to change if a small group of collectors on BO and N54 are basically the only ones concerned about it.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I'll pose another question simply out of ignorance, but has this type of problem (the alteration fraud being made worse with TPG's complicit...) ever occurred before in professional grading with stamps or coins? I don't know much about them, but the American Philatelic Society has a pretty lofty reputation. In an organization like that, is it simply because collectors / historians have a louder voice than dealers and those purely in it with the main goal of driving prices higher?

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by steve B

The Philatelic foundation had a problem in the early 80's where one of their computer operators took payments to issue certificates for altered stamps that had been rejected by experts as altered, but he changed the opinion to genuine.

The main person doing the altering was brazen enough to have a vanity plate that read "Stamp MD"

A bunch of firings, criminal charges etc followed by a lot of hard work restored peoples confidence in them.
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/...069-story.html

You would need a whole bunch of those plates for cards, I guess they could be sequentially numbered after the CardMD.

[jchcollins]

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

So again: Does anyone realistically believe that this problem is ever going away in the card hobby? I don't. Not as long as collectibles continue to be worth real money. The incentives just don't align.

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by steve B

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

Valuable and very interesting insight. Thanks Steve.

[hammertime]

Originally Posted by steve B

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

I would love to see this but I think you're right about law enforcement not having the will to tackle it head-on. A lot of these alterations seem obvious to people in the hobby but to prove fraud in a court of law you need a lot more than a couple pictures of cards that appear to be the same card before and after alteration. You need concrete evidence of the alteration, you need to prove criminal intent, etc. That isn't as easy as some think.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by steve B

Alteration going away? No, it's been here for decades, and the money is way too much for it to go away.

The authentication/grading companies being either nearly useless or complicit?
That could go away, but it seems like the vast majority of the hobby wants to be lied to and taken advantage of.

A friend collects stamps from among other things a small sort of country. Most of their stamps are other countries stamps overprinted with a new name. (sort of a standard thing) The guy who was THE expert a long time ago turned out to also be the guy making fake over prints that surprise! were expertized as good.
Once it was found out, he was kicked out of all philatelic groups he was in, and If I remember it right charged with fraud.
He expertized other stuff too, and now his expertizing mark* is taken as a sign that a fake is likely what you're looking at.

In Europe, it was standard for the expertizer to stamp their name on the back of the stamp. Sometimes in different positions to indicate real or fake flawed or not. They would also do entire sets essentially for the same price as one stamp. I learned this when I asked my friend about a stamp I'd gotten that was a very nice example, and had an expert mark, but I couldn't figure out why. Catalog value was maybe 50 cents, and the catalog listed no valuable varieties.

Serious legal action, ostracization, and similar measures are all that will curb the amount of nonsense we have going on now.
But the hobby for the most part doesn't have the guts to stick with demanding that, and Law enforcement seldom has the "need" and or support to commit resources to it when there are so many bigger crimes that need attention.

Well stated, and completely agree...

But regarding your last statement, somehow Law Enforcement was able to commit ample resources to Mastro and to Operation Bullpen (neither of which was anywhere as rampant/widespread as the current card fiasco).

Don't be so sure that the FBI isn't still working on this. It takes time to build and cement the case, and there are a ton of "players" involved. In addition, Covid has probably delayed their investigative procedures by a number of months.

Time will tell.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

I'm with Mark. I am almost certain that the FBI doesn't invest resources like they have (Agents at the last National among man other documented things) and then just up and quit. I'd put money on the fact that this is an ongoing investigation if there was any way to conclusively find out.