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#1
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Listen, we would have been great with Spahn on our team but between Lefty and Guidry the Yankees won 18 championships whereas the Braves won just the one in 1957. |
#2
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Another note - Mathewson won 20 games 13 times, Young 15, putting Spahn tied for 2nd most 20 win seasons all time, the only post-war pitcher anywhere near the top. He led the league in wins 8 times, the 2nd most is 6, tied by Johnson, Alexander, Feller and Spaulding, who pitched on a literal all-star team that destroyed the NA. If you don't count Spaulding, Spahn has the most consecutive Win titles, at 5. Johnson and Roberts posted 4. He is one of only 3 pitchers to lead the league in 3 different decades, alongside Seaver and Feller. Spahn really has some insane longevity and consistency records. |
#3
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Koufax wins three Cy Young Awards, all UNANIMOUS. I rest my case.
__________________
Tony Biviano |
#4
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Well, you got us. Lefty Grove didn't win a single Cy Young Award, let alone unanimous.
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#5
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Hubbell had a tremendous mid-career stretch that rivals or exceeds any stretch Grove ever had. Carl Hubbell had 4 years with lower WHIP than Grove ever did have. Hubbell also had 2 MVP's plus a 3rd - again better than Grove. For a 5 year stretch one could argue Hubbell better than Grove. They pitched in same 1930's. Hubbell needs some love. And heck, wasn't Koufax' great run abut 5 years?
Last edited by Touch'EmAll; 07-13-2020 at 05:54 PM. |
#6
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The Koufax advocates are now arguing that
A) pitchers before integration do not count for "all time" and B) pitchers before the Cy Young Award do not count for "all time" When I said the logic had run off the rails earlier, well, it's now even worse. Also, Randy Johnson won 5 Cy Young's, so even with this twisted logic, Koufax loses. |
#7
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And we all know the story of the 1934 All-Star Game where Hubbell struck out Ruth, Gehrig, Foxx, Simmons & Cronin - in a row. Legendary.
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#8
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Don't forget that Koufax pitched against some great hitters (which he did,) while Grove only pitched against white stumblebums. Pitching against Pete Rose was way tougher than pitching against wussies like "Ruth" or "Gehrig." |
#9
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Randy Johnson was unanimous pick once. Koufax was unanimous pick 3 times in all of baseball not just one league. I rest my case
__________________
Tony Biviano |
#10
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At any rate, again, I haven't been saying that there aren't strong cases to make for others being the greatest lefty. I am not saying that Koufax was or wasn't the greatest. But the idea that Koufax wasn't a great pitcher is ridiculous. The detractor camp is just not giving him his full due. At this point, I would say they're trying way too hard not to acknowledge him. If it comes to down to listening to what they think, and what guys like Hank Aaron think, I'll go with Aaron. |
#11
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#12
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1. Grove 2. R. Johnson 3. Spahn 4. Hubbell Hubbell has better peak than Spahn, but Spahn was so reliably effective for so many more innings. I think 2-4 all have valid arguments for any position in that range. 5 on down is a drop from the top 4, I think. Plank (hurt by never leading the league in much), Ford, Carlton (inconsistent) would come next I think in some order. Kershaw is climbing up and just needs solid years, not great ones, to quickly jump up the rankings. Less than 2,300 innings and the postseason is all that holds him back |
#13
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1. Koufax 2. Kershaw 3. Ford 4. Hubbell 5. Johnson 6. Grove 7. Carlton 8. Spahn 3 and 4 are close, 5-8 are close, but there are 3 clear tiers. |
#14
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My vote (posted because I just like lookin at it)
__________________
Lonnie Nagel T206 : 174/520 : 33.5% |
#15
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Take a look at Koufax numbers in 1961, his first really good year and the Dodgers last year at LA Memorial Coliseum. He was pretty bad at home and very good on the road. Then look at his home/road splits the next five years. He was very good on the road but put up video game numbers at Dodger Stadium. To be fair the numbers in 1966 were pretty even. But the other four years he was a border line HOF pitcher on the road and the best ever at home.
Larry Walker syndrome. Still a very good player on the road but freakish at home. That doesn't get enough play with Koufax for some reason. The numbers don't lie |
#16
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#17
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Which makes him the best lefty of his era, not best of all time.
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#18
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Yet, the same argument is being made for Grove because he won more ERA titles. The difference is that Koufax did that against much tougher competition. To be unanimous over Spahn, Gibson, Marichal, Drysdale, Bunning, Perry and Sutton is far more impressive. He did that by winning the pitching triple crown each year as well as leading in most other stats. Grove was the best lefty of his era, but if he was truly great, why could he only pitch 35 shutouts in 17 seasons?
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#19
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Cy Youngs are not fair judge of pitchers of different eras, only fair when judging contemporaries since their in direct competition. |
#20
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WHIP, SHUTOUTS, and STRIKEOUTS: most important ERA and WINS: maybe; wins subjective to team WAR: Made-up and useless What about ERA+? Also, era discrepancies like vastly different batting averages and runs scored when compared between the early 1930's and mid-1960's are because the pitching was so deep and talented in the 1960's, correct? Even though you listed the amazing hitters Koufax had to pitch to? Does the fact that Grove was often called in as an effective reliever matter? |
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