Another Babe Ruth Ball Walks In

[ullmandds]

So my friend buys mostly gold, silver...coins...and she's in Iowa this week buying stuff and an 80 yo man walks in with this babe ruth ball. She sends me a text with some images and asks if she should buy it. I said hell yes...and she did!!!

Ball and autograph appear to predate Mikes recent ruth ball find...likely from the 20's. Although Mikes is much nicer!!!!

IT also appears that the babe maybe started signing his last name...stopped...and then started again?

There is also another signature/name on another panel of the ball.

Any ideas? Opinions?

[maniac_73]

Why do Babe Ruth balls never walk in at my work lol. Very cool!

[ullmandds]

haha...they never walk into my office either!!!!!

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Possibly Miller Huggins.

D3820A90-E71D-4641-BBA3-65926CAA0A2F.jpg

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

Possibly Miller Huggins.

Attachment 365654

that'd be awesome!!!!!

sure looks like a match to me!!!!!

thanks adam!

[Bpm0014]

Ruth 100% clubhouse. Not a forgery, but an innocent clubhouse. And yes that is Miller Huggins. It looks good (although I’m not an expert on Huggins). But the Ruth is unfortunately an innocent clubhouse.

[ullmandds]

insert balloon deflating!!!!!

still a cool piece!

[icurnmedic]

What is a "Clubhouse"?

[ullmandds]

clubhouse signatures were somewhat common back then because there was such a demand for a certain players autographs that someone in the clubhouse...a coach...equipment manager...basically anyone usually affiliated with the team will sign a players name as a souvenir for a fan.

[Bpm0014]

Forgery: Bad intentions. Meant to deceive.

Clubhouse: Some kid, a ball boy, a bat boy, a clubhouse attendant, etc. would mimic a signature and sign the name to a team baseball.

Typically a "clubhouse" was used on a team signed baseball. Babe may have been busy or just didn't feel like signing a team ball and may give someone a $5 to sign his name to 50 baseballs. And they would try to mimic his signature.

[perezfan]

Definitely a Clubhouse Ruth, but pretty nice Miller Huggins. He is a very tough HOF auto, if that's any consolation.

[Shoeless Moe]

Have your guy call "Gone with the Stain" get that Ruth right off there. Then you have a nice single signed Huggins!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Shoeless Moe

Have your guy call "Gone with the Stain" get that Ruth right off there. Then you have a nice single signed Huggins!

maybe he can also move it to the sweet spot ?

[Shoeless Moe]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

maybe he can also move it to the sweet spot ?

hahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!


ya can't beat fun at the ol' ballpark, as Harry would say.

[KCRfan1]

What leads you to believe the signature is from the clubhouse and not Ruth himself? What do I need to watch for when a Ruth ball shows up where I work?

[ullmandds]

Honestly after doing my research I thought for sure it was real. This link is useful :

https://www.brigandicoin.com/blogs/b...the-holy-grail

Perhaps others can chime in .

[perezfan]

I don’t think it’s mentioned in the linked Brigandi article (and admittedly I did not read the entire thing.) But you see this secretarial or “clubhouse” style Ruth on many Yankees Team-signed Balls from the 1920s. It is quite common, and once you’ve seen it, it's unmistakeable.

The best form of education might be to search major auction archives (Heritage, Lelands, REA, etc.) Using key words “secretarial”, “clubhouse”, and “Ruth” should yield quite a few examples. The most glaring tell-tale signs are the exaggerated slant, the quote marks, and the oversized looping nature of the letter “R” in Ruth. Also, these clubhouse versions were typically done in a "lighter hand" (with less pen pressure).

Here’s a quick example from 1928 that I found in a previous REA auction, which exhibits the same clubhouse attributes... and most likely was done in the same hand as the one posted above...

https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...d-ball-gehrig/

[PhilNap]

No mention that the Ruth is a clubhouse.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OFFICIAL-AM...UAAOSwD8pdfutR

[KCRfan1]

Originally Posted by PhilNap

No mention that the Ruth is a clubhouse.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OFFICIAL-AM...UAAOSwD8pdfutR

That's too bad. So much for someone soliciting opinions, I assume the opinions are shared with the seller then, only to have the seller lead potential buyers to believe the Ruth signature is real.

Why even bother. Buyer beware always.

Sorry Peter, we know you did the right thing, too bad your friend isn't.

[Bpm0014]

Wow, that's jive. What a bad move. Even after they are told it was most certainly a clubhouse signature!

[ruth-gehrig]

Some people only hear what they want to hear. Couple that with greed and there you have it.

[maniac_73]

Thats a shame that he would do that

[ullmandds]

Thats disappointing.

[perezfan]

Personally, I’m getting very tired of helping people out here. What a waste of time that we’ll never get back. Most people are appreciative, but between the PSA coverups, fake Ad Signs, and all of these fake autographs being sold as real, it’s getting old very quickly.

My motivation to share knowledge and help people out here is really dwindling... and that was probably the best thing about this forum.

OP... please tell your buddy he/she is peddling fraudulent merchandise, and the “no return” policy holds no water with PayPal and Ebay’s Buyer Protection.

Disgusting!

[ullmandds]

oh I told them!!!! last time I ever ask for advice on their behalf!!!

[1963Topps Set]

How much did she pay?

[ullmandds]

not my place to say...but I will say if ball sells at opening ask she will lose $$$$.

[JeremyW]

No good deed goes unpunished.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by JeremyW

No good deed goes unpunished.

sad but true these days...it seems we're damned if we do...damned if we don't in most situations.

[Leon]

All you can do is tell them and tell them why and then it is up to them to do the right thing, not you (obviously). I have seen those things not work out well for the seller's many times especially when discussed on forums.

Originally Posted by ullmandds

sad but true these days...it seems we're damned if we do...damned if we don't in most situations.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

oh I told them!!!! last time I ever ask for advice on their behalf!!!

not sure why everyone asks for things for a 'friend' If we are talking 1000s of dollars, the friend should ask on their own

otherwise they can just say nobody told them etc

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

not sure why everyone asks for things for a 'friend' If we are talking 1000s of dollars, the friend should ask on their own

otherwise they can just say nobody told them etc

Interesting perspective, Jake? Have you EVER helped out a friend? Maybe a friend who doesn't have expertise in an area you...or your online message board posse of "friends" have expertise in?

[Bpm0014]

Exactly Pete. You did nothing wrong. You had no clue they were going to list it on eBay like that.

[todeen]

I bought a Connie Mack team signed signature page. I looked at many examples of his signature, came to the conclusion it was real, and bought it on ebay. I was straight forward with the seller I was going to have it authenticated and I would only then leave feedback after its return. It came back from PSA as a clubhouse and I was able to get the money back. Needless to say, that was disappointing. But I have also heard that some clubhouse signatures can also pull a premium, although it obviously wouldn't demand a Ruth premium.

Still, that Ruth ball is a cool find. I love the colored threads on those old balls. I collect signed All Star game balls now to liven up my collection, bring a little color into the cabinet.

[PhilNap]

Well after "selling" it last week she now has it up again, further discounted. This time mentioning, deep in the description, that the Ruth is "believed to be a clubhouse signature".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OFFICIAL-AM...53.m1438.l2649

[BillyCoxDodgers3B]

In the late '80s-very early '90s, there was a dealer who used that very style of clubhouse Ruth in his Krause Publications ads! Wish I could remember who it was. Thanks for the chuckle.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Interesting perspective, Jake? Have you EVER helped out a friend? Maybe a friend who doesn't have expertise in an area you...or your online message board posse of "friends" have expertise in?

You can help a friend on many things and is case by case. Asking what are some nice things to do in California, even if my 'friend' doesnt listen, theres nothing that would come back to me at all.

In an area of a collectible where the 'friend' already has some expertise, i would just tell them to ask net54 on their own. That way, if the friend is doing what others think is dishonest, then zero questions that I would have to say i had nothing to do with it.

i dont have to worry about that on what are nice things to do in california...

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by PhilNap

Well after "selling" it last week she now has it up again, further discounted. This time mentioning, deep in the description, that the Ruth is "believed to be a clubhouse signature".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OFFICIAL-AM...53.m1438.l2649

Yeah this seller is someone i would want to friends with and i will go that extra mile for that friend who asks me about the next collectible about whether its authentic or not because afterall its a friend...

[Leon]

I am pretty sure they would be screwed in an ebay return dispute given the title of the lot...

OFFICIAL AMERICAN LEAGUE BALL Signed By Babe Ruth & Miller Huggins

Originally Posted by PhilNap

Well after "selling" it last week she now has it up again, further discounted. This time mentioning, deep in the description, that the Ruth is "believed to be a clubhouse signature".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/OFFICIAL-AM...53.m1438.l2649

[ullmandds]

Dunno leon... she says twice in the description that it is likely a clubhouse signature. At this point the price is practically comparable to a blank ball of this era.

[Mark17]

I don't collect this stuff but I am curious, if someone bought that ball and had the Ruth professionally removed to make it a single-signed Huggins ball, is that similar to someone removing defects from cards? Or is there a separate set of rules for removing unwanted signatures from signed baseballs?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Dunno leon... she says twice in the description that it is likely a clubhouse signature. At this point the price is practically comparable to a blank ball of this era.

i dont think price point matters....its about being deceptive.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

i dont think price point matters....its about being deceptive.

Oh mentioning it twice in the description is not enough for you?? I’m guessing the reason you don’t help friends is because you don’t have any?

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Mark17

I don't collect this stuff but I am curious, if someone bought that ball and had the Ruth professionally removed to make it a single-signed Huggins ball, is that similar to someone removing defects from cards? Or is there a separate set of rules for removing unwanted signatures from signed baseballs?

The removal of a signature is quite comparable. It is something that needs to be disclosed, when selling. PSA and JSA both include in their LOAs when they’ve detected signature removal. If a removal is present, and it goes undetected, it is akin to trimming, recoloring or other alteration being missed by PSA.

The two are very similar in nature. As to the compromised monetary value, the ball will be less impacted than the card. A card graded “A” takes a much more severe hit in monetary value. A signed ball with ink removal will definitely be worth less than it’s all-original counterpart. But It only loses about 1/3 of the value, whereas the card’s value will plummet much further. That’s just one aspect of why all of the PSA “misses” on the card side are so infuriating.

[Yastrzemski Sports]

Originally Posted by perezfan

The removal of a signature is quite comparable. It is something that needs to be disclosed, when selling. PSA and JSA both include in their LOAs when they’ve detected signature removal. If a removal is present, and it goes undetected, it is akin to trimming, recoloring or other alteration being missed by PSA.

The two are very similar in nature. As to the compromised monetary value, the ball will be less impacted than the card. A card graded “A” takes a much more severe hit in monetary value. A signed ball with ink removal will definitely be worth less than it’s all-original counterpart. But It only loses about 1/3 of the value, whereas the card’s value will plummet much further. That’s just one aspect of why all of the PSA “misses” on the card side are so infuriating.

I may disagree with you on value. As it stands, the Huggins with Clubhouse Ruth or if someone were to remove the Ruth (which can’t be done well enough to go unnoticed) the ball is worth around 400-600. A single Huggins in that condition is 2000-5000. Single signed baseballs are a different category altogether and can go much higher than a multi signed ball.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Yastrzemski Sports

I may disagree with you on value. As it stands, the Huggins with Clubhouse Ruth or if someone were to remove the Ruth (which can’t be done well enough to go unnoticed) the ball is worth around 400-600. A single Huggins in that condition is 2000-5000. Single signed baseballs are a different category altogether and can go much higher than a multi signed ball.

You make a good point with this particular ball, but some of these signature removals can be done without a trace of the former ink being present. Many signature removals are invisible to the naked eye, and are only visible under magnification. There are people who are experts at doing this...

I've seen many balls at auction that appear as single-signed, but have a sig removal that's disclosed. Often (if the removal is virtually invisible) they sell for up to 2/3 the value of a single-signed ball. Especially if the remaining signature is bold and clean.

I still believe an altered Card plummets in value to a far greater extent than an altered Ball. But of course there are various exceptions.

[ullmandds]

Interesting discussion that is out of my wheelhouse!!

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Oh mentioning it twice in the description is not enough for you?? I’m guessing the reason you don’t help friends is because you don’t have any?

doing a lot of defending for a deceptive friend......the friend didnt mention it twice in the first listing, if not let me know.

the 2nd listing still has issues as already stated on this thread by others..not just me......i dont know any friend thats list an item twice makes changes to it and still have issues that an ebay return can still occur for a deceptive listing.

but you are right i dont have any (deceptive ) friends. you can keep those to yourself..


by the way, i always find it funny how people tell the age of the person that brings in a card or collectible...the fact that the person selling to the friend was 80 years old was mentioned....anyone can have an 80 year old sell their cards for them. .....the age of the person selling the collectible is the same thing of claiming where they found it...in grandpas attic..

[Leon]

IF the most expensive thing is probably a repro or whatever, itg should be mentioned clearly and, most likely, in the title. The seller did state the issue but it could have been a little better done.

Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector

doing a lot of defending for a deceptive friend......the friend didnt mention it twice in the first listing, if not let me know.

the 2nd listing still has issues as already stated on this thread by others..not just me......i dont know any friend thats list an item twice makes changes to it and still have issues that an ebay return can still occur for a deceptive listing.

but you are right i dont have any (deceptive ) friends. you can keep those to yourself..


by the way, i always find it funny how people tell the age of the person that brings in a card or collectible...the fact that the person selling to the friend was 80 years old was mentioned....anyone can have an 80 year old sell their cards for them. .....the age of the person selling the collectible is the same thing of claiming where they found it...in grandpas attic..