1952 Topps Mickey Mantle PSA 8 in PWCC Auction

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I continue to believe though it is naive to think that if Picasso's can be restored and collector cars can too to mimic their original state that trading cards somehow can't and wont be.

I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

I used to wonder the same often. The standard retort was that Picasso's and many other works of art are one of a kind; sports cards - even really rare and expensive ones - generally aren't.

Where it matters in reality I believe is whether or not Joe Blow Zillionaire collector of macho-ridiculously-expensive sports cards thinks it matters. And to date I doubt many of those types have even considered the comparison question.

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I have a client that owns close to 20 1950's classic cars and he built a home with a museum attached that appears to be part of the home. When you tour this museum/garage and see how beautiful and near perfect the cars are it reinforces anything is possible.

He has a rare car from the 50's where there are only three known and his has the rare hubcaps that were limited edition. One or two are re-manufactured and the others are refurbished. The car is mint and is a perfect restoration.

In the car world there is an expectation that the cars have been worked on. In the vintage card world it seems there is the same but to what degree.

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

Is it the same base, unspoken expectation that it's simply not reasonable for classic vintage cars to be totally in untouched, factory NOS condition today - but that for cards somehow that might be possible? You can shove a Honus Wagner card in a book for a century, same is not possible with a car? To me it's still something unspoken like this to where we still just unthinkingly want to downgrade a card for any type of alteration. Brent obviously had horrible timing in trying to start a "conservation" discussion a few months back due to what he was up to, but even if not for that - it's not a dicussion that many collectors even want to approach.

Yes the timing was poor.

I admittedly do not know what to think about it. Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

Brent makes it very clear in that video that there are quite a few cards that have been "conserved". He has a very matter of fact look on his face and with being so connected to the hobby and seeing thousands upon thousands of cards I think it is clear he is right. Whether one thinks it is the right opinion or belief appears to be up for debate.

I do find it odd that some who are totally okay with soaking which in my view is attempting to improve the cards appearance or restore it is okay but other methods are worthy of the death penalty.

In life many try and justify wrong doing by saying well others do it or it is not as bad as killing someone etc. but once that line is crossed it is crossed and now you are in new territory.

I can't get in the head of someone buying these cards so I will leave what is okay or acceptable up to them and as I said there may be many of these collectors that are perfectly fine with "conservation" and would rather look at a much nicer card. I have to assume that many of these same collectors have exposure to other high end collectible asset classes and trading cards appears to be the only area where it is taboo but yet still accepted.

Very complicated topic that is for sure.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

Yes the timing was poor.
Seeing pristine looking cards that came out of tobacco canisters or cracker jack boxes has never really made sense to me. Once I started learning more about the older cards from this forum and hearing about the techniques many use that are considered okay it became clear to me that what I thought was the norm wasn't the norm.

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town around me back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

[Dpeck100]

Originally Posted by jchcollins

As a kid who started collecting in the late 80's, it was generally unheard of to find even 1950's and 60's Topps cards in super great shape. There were multiple card shops in virtually every town back then, but the ones that carried vintage usually had lower grade stuff at best. I remember being excited not because of the card's condition, but because "Hey, that's Hank Aaron."

In more ways than one today maybe the loss of that sentiment about collecting is really to blame.

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.

[jchcollins]

Originally Posted by Dpeck100

I started collecting in 85 as a six year old kid and wasn't paying any attention to the older cards. Some years later I would see cards in the cases at shops and none were nice.

I do think there are some cards out there that clearly survived in great condition but how many is clearly up for debate.

I started in '86 at age 9. Collected just Topps wax for a year or so before biting hard into vintage (back then just called "old") cards. EX range was super nice for a '50s or '60s card, tobacco cards were virtually never seen unless you were at a huge show, and then they were not in great shape. It does seem odd to me even before the PWCC mess that seemingly so many prewar cards in ridiculously high grade seemed to come out of the woodwork, but at the time I thought well, we have the internet now. The market is able to allocate more efficiently. But where were all those cards back at shows circa 1990? I'm admittedly small town, never went to the National or anything. But the whole thing still seems kind of odd.