Its not just moser/pwcc...more trimmers exposed

[drcy]

There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by drcy

There are current tools, beyond just blacklight, that would identify all added material. They are currently used with art and artifacts.

Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway ), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

[Thromdog]

Here’s a Cy Young with some work done.....bought in fall 2017 at BST as a PSA 2 and then sold by PWCC as a PSA 3.

There’s at least one other from that auction that was altered and sold by PWCC also.

https://bst-auctions.com/1909_1911_T...A-LOT2936.aspx

[steve B]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

That makes perfect sense, but it should still fail a blacklight test. Why aren't these high dollar cards being examined under a blacklight? Is an extra 30 seconds in the review process really that much extra effort, especially on high dollar cards?

If there's some glosscoat (Or matte clear ) It may block UV. Similarly, not every modern paint/ink will react to UV, so the blacklight won't help as much as it's believed to.

But that's also no reason to not use one. as they can expose a whole laundry list of sins.

[perezfan]

Well, instead of a blacklight, it appears PSA used a blindfold when examining that Cy Young card.

I wonder if even 1% of these bad cards in PSA Slabs have yet been exposed?

[Scott L.]

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

[Scott L.]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Well, by banning him, PWCC did him a gigantic favor. Gee, PSA overlooked an obvious wrinkle.... shocker!

Totally agree! Huge favor.

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

I-N-S-A-N-e!!

Like the child in the neighborhood if you don’t play by their rules they don’t play! Pathetic!

[swarmee]

To write a glowing textual review and not mention the quasi-refractor line going through the entire card is definitely cause for return.

[Scott L.]

That "line" is so noticeable once you see. I imagine there might be a line out the door of folks looking to return cards and Brent & Betsty are probably on tilt with no one to blame but themselves.

[Republicaninmass]

You can fool some of the people some of the time..

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Outside of Jeff L's post, all of the outrage on the last 3 pages is directed at Moser and PWCC (unless someone posts differently while I'm writing this). Many of the posts even suggest that PSA and/or Collectors Universe should expand their operations to become even more powerful than they already are. The power they already wield is the bulk of the problem here... It's what is motivating the "doctors" to alter/submit to PSA, and their Registry is what's driving the insane prices paid for these altered cards. They are making the Card Doctors rich.

Increasing PSA's presence will only add to the problem. I understand that most people here have a vested interest in PSA, with tens of thousands of dollars tied up in their holders. But check out the 2 latest reveals on BO...

The '51 Bowman Mantle, from which Moser profited tremendously, and the '52 Mays, in which he actually lost money (a chemical burn resulted from his "cleaning" process). The common denominator in all of this is PSA's failure to detect anything. So aside from the "vested interests", why is such blind faith put in PSA to fix it?

It's like asking the Mayor of Flint, MI to fix their water crisis.

F PSA, F Brent Mastro and F Gary Hoser. They are all criminals, IMHO.

[Fuddjcal]

Originally Posted by perezfan

Correct. There are more card doctors than you can count. Moser is one... many more have been exposed on BO.

The common denominator is PSA authorization.

AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Fuddjcal

AND BRENT MASTRO who has allowed it for 10 YEARS

Or longer.

[perezfan]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Or longer.

True and true... both are despicable.

But look at the title of this thread... Many other trimmers and sellers have been exposed (beyond PWCC and Moser).

While PWCC/Moser are by far the most visible and rampant, the term "common denominator" applies to the fraud in total. And as it relates to the exposed altered vintage cards, it is PSA that is the common thread. And it is the PSA Slab that allows these cards to be legitimized and sold at ANY other venue in the future.

It's much like the virus in the movie, Outbreak. Until they found the infectious monkey, the virus continued to spread. For the virus to finally be contained, they had to contain and destroy the monkey. As these tainted vintage examples continue to be exposed in mass, PSA's "monkey business" is becoming more and more apparent.

[Peter_Spaeth]

I'm pretty certain I discussed Gary with Brent no later than 2007 (before I moved to my current home in early 2008, because I know it was from my old home), and it could have been before that.

[ullmandds]

I love it! I wanta tshirt that says “the Monkey must be contained” with a picture of a monkey In a psa T-shirt!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

I love it! I wanta tshirt that says “the Monkey must be contained” with a picture of a monkey In a psa T-shirt!

Not a PWCC t shirt?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Not a PWCC t shirt?

Include all the monkeys!

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Include all the monkeys!

Pete, they don't make shirts big enough, not even if you used fine print.

[perezfan]

Wow... great idea! That would be a cool shirt to wear at The National.

We previously did Net54 Pins... T-shirts would be even better. I'd buy one in a heartbeat!

[bobbyw8469]

The detective actually missed the bottom left corner that has been built up. I'm blown away that PSA misses all this restoration. This goes beyond just removing wax stains and crud. This is trimming, color restoration and corner buildup! I am totally dumbfounded. Is this Gary Moser guy a millionaire yet?

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2383

[joshuanip]

Not relevant to post.

[Arazi4442]

Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

[joshuanip]

Originally Posted by Arazi4442

Thoughts on this "asset"?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/Steph-Curry...IAAOSw91Jc8Kxi

Seems like a trim would be tough to detect!

Its ok, he has a 30 day return policy. If you dont like it you can return it (but he may ban you).

[CMIZ5290]

The hits keep on coming with this guy, but unfortunately, he is going to win out and keep laughing all the way to the bank....

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

The hits keep on coming with this guy, but unfortunately, he is going to win out and keep laughing all the way to the bank....

Who, Brent? Gary?

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Its only a 200M market cap, but explain why CLCT is near 52 week highs in this market dump..... Either the news hasn't disseminated or this will pass.

i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!

[vintagetoppsguy]

The guys at BO have done an amazing job in their detective work. The before and after pics are irrefutable evidence. Good thing previous auction sales and scans are recorded.

But I wonder how many doctored cards are out there residing in PSA slabs that will never be known? Cards where there are no before scans available? Cards that Moser purchased at a shop, show or other private sale for doctoring? I guess we'll truly never know.

[joshuanip]

Not relevant to post.

[CMIZ5290]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Who, Brent? Gary?

Brent..

[ullmandds]

i'm no graphic designer...BUT!!!!!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The guys at BO have done an amazing job in their detective work. The before and after pics are irrefutable evidence. Good thing previous auction sales and scans are recorded.

But I wonder how many doctored cards are out there residing in PSA slabs that will never be known? Cards where there are no before scans available? Cards that Moser purchased at a shop, show or other private sale for doctoring? I guess we'll truly never know.

As I have posted this goes WELL beyond this single individual. There are many card doctors.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

Brent..

I think you are wrong. He will not skate.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

i think the stock is seen as a good stock when the markets bad...people may gravitate towards collectibles as investments...like whats happening right now...so the stock is high...because most stockpickers/investors don't know whats happening with psa right now...it hasn't made any major news outlets...might be a good one to short!!!

Dave Peck gave some very good insight into the perils of shorting a stock like this not long ago.

[Tabe]

Originally Posted by doug.goodman

THEN the greed took over?

Hahahahahahaha, I'm rolling on the floor laughing over here (and my hotel has hardwood floors, so it's a bit uncomfortable).

It was kind of early in the process when the greed took over...

Allow me to, once again, point out the very FIRST card that the biggest seller of opinions ever gave an opinion on (although it was pointed last time I mentioned it that they were probably giving that opinion for no charge)...

Ladies and gentleman, straight from being hand cut from a sheet, the first paid opinion that mattered, #00000001, I present to you the world's most valuable card, the authentic, oops, sorry, I mean 8 on a 10 scale, Gretzky Wagner...

And I would remind people that one of the most famous cards in our hobby - the 1933 Goudey Lajoie - was basically a scam pulled on collectors.

[joshuanip]

Not relevant to post.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by joshuanip

Not relevant to post.

That's OK I do it all the time. I figure nobody cares or I am on everyone's ignore list.

[drcy]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Thanks! You don't have to explain how the tools work (I probably wouldn't understand anyway ), but how long would it take to use these tools to examine a card? Just wanting to know how much extra time would be involved in the grading process?

There are handheld "point and shoot" spectrometers, including one pictured in the below article. Blacklights are a form of spectroscopy, but there are highly advanced versions (using ir, gamma rays and x-rays) that include handheld devices.


SPECTROSCOPY IN ART AND ARTIFACTS AUTHENTICATION

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

As I have posted this goes WELL beyond this single individual. There are many card doctors.

Understood. My statement wasn't really about the doctors, but about the doctored cards. They're easy to verify because there are before and after photos. I was just pondering how many exist that we'll never know about because the cards were purchased at a shop or show or other private sale, were doctored, but we'll never know about because there were no before photos for comparison.

After PSA cleans house and gets rid of the employees that were involved, dont you think they should offer some kind of service to their customers like a FREE evaluation? For what it's worth I think Sloan is a piece of crap for not addressing this.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

Understood. My statement wasn't really about the doctors, but about the doctored cards. They're easy to verify because there are before and after photos. I was just pondering how many exist that we'll never know about because the cards were purchased at a shop or show or other private sale, were doctored, but we'll never know about because there were no before photos for comparison.

After PSA cleans house and gets rid of the employees that were involved, dont you think they should offer some kind of service to their customers like a FREE evaluation? For what it's worth I think Sloan is a piece of crap for not addressing this.

We'll never know more than a fraction of it. The good news I guess is that SO many cards are out there it may still add up to a relatively low percentage, if that's any consolation.

We'll just have to wait and see if they say anything, or if they are forced to by the market.

[perezfan]

The bogus PSA-approved cards just keep coming on BO.... Cobb, Marquard and Mantle now... with no apparent end in sight.

If FBI or Law Enforcement doesn't have enough to intervene with this plethora of indisputable evidence, then there's a huge double-standard. This is feeling way beyond what Mastro, Allen and Rogers did.

PWCC/PSA are to cards as Coach's Corner/Christopher Morales are to autographs. Actually they are worse, as the corrupt money pouring in is far greater.

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I feel a bit vindicated in my opposition from day one to these stupid stickers.

The stickers carry no credibility at all at this point...

[swarmee]

And because he gave so many to Moser, they've actually become a signpost to find more trimmed and altered cards...

[chalupacollects]

Originally Posted by Bigdaddy

For a computer based vision system with machine learning capability, the detection of alterations to cards, whether trimmed edges, recoloring or other alterations, should be easy to detect.

This is a grad student project to put together the system and to 'teach' it with known examples of altered and unaltered cards. You could also give the system rules for grading the cards. No human operator needed (or desired).

No not a grad school project. Several ex Microsoft engineers have buddied up with some patent lawyers out of California and already have a pattern on the technology... There are several threads here (more comprehensive - has links to the patent) and also on Blowout... not sure how to search them out but someone will see this and oblige...

Just not sure what they are waiting for to launch??? Maybe an angel investor or VC firm??? I'm sure they can get some seed money off this board alone!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Gee whiz.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2402

[Peter_Spaeth]

Yowza.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2401

[T206Collector]

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2388

[MULLINS5]

Originally Posted by Scott L.

Return a card to PWCC and now your banned.

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...-return#latest

It is not in PWCC's best interest to deal with people who inspect their purchases.