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View Poll Results: Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF? | |||
Maris only | 82 | 28.47% | |
Belle only | 44 | 15.28% | |
Both | 33 | 11.46% | |
Neither | 129 | 44.79% | |
Voters: 288. You may not vote on this poll |
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#101
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Murphy for one.
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#102
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Juan Gonzalez also.
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#103
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Sincerely, Mystique and Aura |
#104
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Brian |
#105
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Watered down pitching allowed Maris to have a career year, Cash to have a career year and Gentile to have a career year. Yet Maris is the only one being talked about as being a Hall Of Famer.
If you are going to give credit for Maris having a big year when the pitching was watered down then you also have to give credit to the other guys and if you do that then Maris had a worse year than the other two except for the home run total. David |
#106
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s-l1600.jpg
"Hey, Norm...[chew...chew]...how much you wanna bet that in 2019 people are going to have a very contentious argument about you and me?"
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#107
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Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award. |
#108
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Not that great of a year? He led the entire league in runs, home runs, rbi's and total bases while breaking a record held by Babe Ruth. McGwire didn't win when he hit 70 but Sosa did for hitting 66; not really an apt comparison when both players broke the record and one of them still won MVP. Bonds also won MVP when he broke McGwire's record. Lastly, I think you're wrong about players not getting in for a historic season. Bill Terry was a great hitter, but he waited 15 years for induction and it took him 9 years to even get 50%. Are you suggesting his ultimate induction had nothing to do with him hitting 400? Last edited by packs; 03-14-2019 at 07:20 AM. |
#109
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#110
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54.2 career WAR / 41.2 7yr-peak WAR / 47.7 JAWS Average HOF 1B (out of 21): 66.8 career WAR / 42.7 7yr-peak WAR / 54.7 JAWS |
#111
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#112
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Which one, though? Lifetime or the year he hit 400?
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#113
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I suspect some of each, but that without the career the one season would not have been sufficient.
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#114
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Everyone with 5000+ ABs and a .340+ BA is in the Hall. Doesn't matter what their best season was.
edited to add: The best career batting average of players with 5000 or more at-bats who haven't been inducted is .324 (Babe Herman), followed by Helton and Cabrera at .316. Last edited by darwinbulldog; 03-14-2019 at 08:30 AM. |
#115
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#116
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But still ending up with a .324 career average? Good question. I guess I'd put it around a 50-60% chance, but I would contrast that with the probability that Terry would have gotten in had his .400 season been a .393 instead and his career average still been .341. I'd still put his odds at better than 95%.
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#117
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Terry was a rung or two above Herman for the year and for their careers, but the hitting in 1930 makes Lefty Grove’s pitching seem surreal. Terry and Herman not so much. AL batting numbers in 1930 were a bit less than the NL, but Grove was a good part of the reason for the difference.
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#118
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Roger Maris
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#119
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Those old cigarette ads are cool. Last edited by bnorth; 03-14-2019 at 09:26 AM. |
#120
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He was also a dead ringer for Baron von Richthofen. That should count for something.
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#121
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Richthofen is definitely Hall of Fame material! That goes without saying.
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#122
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I am still trying to pick my jaw up from the floor with the Harold Baines induction. Hall of Fame - says so right there in black and white...FAME. Not one person alive can rightfully argue Roger Maris was not famous.
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#123
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Yeah he went 80 for 81.
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#124
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See post #5.
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#125
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And people in the West, South or Midwest certainly knew who Maris was in 1961... unless they lived under a rock. You can also add that most players with little fame do not have movies made after them. |
#126
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#127
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Rico Petrocelli 1969 was right up there with Rosen.
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#128
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We are not talking about just any old puny record here like most bunt singles in a season, or most steals of 3rd, or some other such record. We are talking about one of the most haloed, prestigious and most famous records in all of American sports history - most HR in a season ! Also, by the way he had not one but 2 MVP winning seasons, and several all-star games to boot. Down play it all you want, everyone it entitled to their opinions.
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#129
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DiMaggio's 1941 season is good for only 123rd all time in terms of single season WAR. Does that make his 56 game streak null and void? It's still considered one of the greatest seasons anyone has ever had.
Last edited by packs; 03-14-2019 at 05:11 PM. |
#130
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Denny McLain, anyone? Back to back Cys and an astonishing 30 win season.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-14-2019 at 12:19 PM. |
#131
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The Cy Young has been awarded how many times? To how many different pitchers? At least a dozen different players have won it multiple times.... Hitting 61 Home runs or more? Now how many players are in THAT list? His 31 win-season is especially impressive... I'll give you that. But wins by pitchers carry nowhere near the fame of hitting home runs... |
#132
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I don't think anyone identified McLain as a guy who fell off the cliff in the other thread, but he would be a very good example.
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#133
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#134
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Roger Maris
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Furthermore, it dramatically shows that this term called "WAR" is just a bunch of newspeak "hor$e-cr@p" as a meaningful metric to judge a BB players value to his team. Right-on, packs....thanks for posting this bit of trivia. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#135
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What's impossible, is someone climbing past Young's 511 wins... that record is sealed for the ages. |
#136
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Brent Joe DiMaggio's 56-game streak is possibe. But, highly improbable. DiMaggio's hitting style has become a lost art. How many of you realize that DiMaggio ran a 66-game hitting streak in the PCL ? So, Joe had "been there, done that". When Rose was flirting with breaking it in 1978 with his 44-game streak, the sports media pressure was unbelievable. And, there in is the all important mental component that factors in to trying to achieve this record. TED Z T206 Reference . |
#137
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Barring any major changes in how the game is played (which is a little unrealistic I'll admit), there's about a 5% chance DiMaggio's record is broken in the next 100 years. That's extrapolating from Bill James's calculations of the annual probabilities. For Cy Young I'd guess it's lower than 1% but not much lower. Imagine this scenario...
A pitcher with peak ability somewhat better than, say, Pedro Martinez also has, via good genes and mechanics and improvements in athletic training, the longevity of Nolan Ryan and is fortunate enough to pitch for a team that, on average across his career, also has the best lineup in his league. Let's say also that his career starts ten years from now when every team has a 2-3 inning starter and a 1 inning closer, and that this guy's job is to pitch innings 3-8 every fifth day or 4-8 every fourth day. He pitches for 25 years and also happens to be a slightly more skilled pitcher than the best ones we've seen so far. Such a pitcher would average better than 20 wins a year (i.e., > 500 career Ws). The odds that someone will break Hoss Radbourn's single season mark are much lower, and as I've mentioned before, anyone who can somehow win 61 games in a year at some future date stands an excellent chance of winning at least 512 in his career, whereas even a pitcher who somehow ends up with 512 career wins is unlikely to have had any 50 (let alone 60) win seasons. |
#138
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#139
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But his WAR was only good for 123rd all time. It was even lower than Norm Ca.....
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#140
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Yeah I saw that it's hard to believe there are 122 better seasons out there than DiMaggio 1941 I don't know WAR well enough to know where the disconnect is there.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. |
#141
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On a interesting note Carl Yastrzemski had the 3rd best single season WAR in 1967. I am not sure with even using the terms theoretical and hypothetical that season can be the 3rd best ever.
Last edited by bnorth; 03-15-2019 at 03:20 PM. |
#142
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To break Ryan's 7 no-hitters, Wow ! Now we are talking some amazing incredible other-worldly pitcher. Probably have to do a DNA test just to make sure he is from Planet Earth.
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#143
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"All models are wrong, but some are useful"-- British statistician George E. P. Box
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#144
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Hitting streaks don't add value apart from the hits themselves though, and it doesn't even rank in the top 500 seasons in terms of his hit total.
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#145
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George Box is noted for his invention of the Box Score as well.
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#146
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As well as his lunches, socials, and jellyfish.
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#147
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#148
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125 RBI .357 BA ,440 OBP .643 SLG 1.083 OPS Who said anything about the streak?
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My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/ He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt. Last edited by Peter_Spaeth; 03-15-2019 at 07:28 PM. |
#149
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1) At least five of us just in this thread, including yourself. 2) It is literally, as I suspect you already know, the reason DiMaggio's 1941 season (as opposed to any of the hundreds of other 30+ HR/125+ RBI seasons) is being discussed here. 3) Zero, yes zero, of the very statistics you just cited above rank in the top 100. Most aren't even close. For that matter, none of them even ranks as DiMaggio's personal best. Last edited by darwinbulldog; 03-16-2019 at 04:16 AM. Reason: corrected "125 RBI" to "125+ RBI" |
#150
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