Do Roger Maris or Albert Belle belong in the HOF

[ctownboy]

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David

[packs]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Brian,

Maris's Home Run record is also tainted.

First off, he did it in a 162 game season and NOT a 154 game season

and

2) He did it in a year where the pitching was watered down and OTHER players ALSO put up big numbers.

Norm Cash had a GREAT year in 1961 and put up better numbers over his career than Roger Maris did, so does Norm Cash deserve to be in the HOF??

David

This perspective is mystifying to me. What do you have to say about Babe Ruth's record then? He did it with the lively ball and without pitchers pitching underhanded and batters calling for a slow or fast pitch like they did in 1871. Give me a break.

Why anyone would try to take away from what Maris did is beyond my understanding. The man's feat was remarkable and likely will never be replicated by a clean player.

[ctownboy]

My point is, people are pointing to steroid abusers and saying they shouldn't be in the HOF and their records shouldn't count because they cheated (I agree). Yet, Maris is given a pass because of one year and one number while OTHER players who ALSO had a great 1961 season and who had BETTER career numbers than Maris aren't considered for the HOF.

Again look at Norm Cash's stats compared to Maris in 1961---

Cash had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS+ and almost as many rbi's and total bases. As for his career, Cash also had a longer career and put up bigger numbers than Maris yet Cash is in no discussion about the HOF.

David

[packs]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

My point is, people are pointing to steroid abusers and saying they shouldn't be in the HOF and their records shouldn't count because they cheated (I agree). Yet, Maris is given a pass because of one year and one number while OTHER players who ALSO had a great 1961 season and who had BETTER career numbers than Maris aren't considered for the HOF.

Again look at Norm Cash's stats compared to Maris in 1961---

Cash had more hits, doubles, triples, walks, a higher batting average, on base percentage, slugging percentage, OPS and OPS+ and almost as many rbi's and total bases. As for his career, Cash also had a longer career and put up bigger numbers than Maris yet Cash is in no discussion about the HOF.

David

I honestly have no idea why Norm Cash enters into any discussion about Roger Maris' career or achievement.

[ctownboy]

Because Norm Cash played in the same league in the same year as Maris and batted against the same watered down pitching and look at his numbers compared to Maris. Cash had an overall better offensive year than Maris and had an overall better career than Maris yet Maris is the one getting the HOF love in this thread and on these boards while Cash isn't even being talked about.

I am comparing apples to apples and other than the 61, Maris doesn't stack up against even Norm Cash for 1961 or for his entire career.

If Maris had hit 59 home runs in 1961 then Cash most likely would have been the MVP because of the numbers he put up.

David

[packs]

Originally Posted by ctownboy

Because Norm Cash played in the same league in the same year as Maris and batted against the same watered down pitching and look at his numbers compared to Maris. Cash had an overall better offensive year than Maris and had an overall better career than Maris yet Maris is the one getting the HOF love in this thread and on these boards while Cash isn't even being talked about.

I am comparing apples to apples and other than the 61, Maris doesn't stack up against even Norm Cash for 1961 or for his entire career.

If Maris had hit 59 home runs in 1961 then Cash most likely would have been the MVP because of the numbers he put up.

David

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

[brianp-beme]

Originally Posted by packs

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

Jim Gentile did have one heck of a 1961 season...46 home runs, 141 rbi, .302 batting average, .646 slugging percentage.

Brian

[rats60]

Originally Posted by packs

I am still baffled by your characterization here. Maris won the MVP in 1960. Norm cash finished FOURTH in voting in 1961, behind Jim Gentile.

Maris would never win the MVP today. Mark Mcgwire didn't win MVP when he hit 70 Hrs. It is also why players aren't elected to the HoF because they broke one record or had one good season. Mantle should have won MVP, he led the AL in WAR with 10.5. Cash was 2nd with 9.2. Maris was tied for 5th with 6.9.

Maris may have hit 61 Hrs, but he was certainly greatly helped by having the true AL MVP protecting him in the lineup. Maris was never intentionally walked in 1961. Most likely never pitched around and saw good pitches when pitchers fell behind in the count. Still overall he didn't have that great of a season. When Ryan Howard hit 58 Hrs in 2006, we had 37 IBB and a total of 108 BB. How many more Hrs does he hit if he is protected in the lineup by Mickey Mantle? Today we have the ability to look deeper than how many Hrs a player hit or that writers voted for a guy who they really shouldn't have for an award.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by packs

I honestly have no idea why Norm Cash enters into any discussion about Roger Maris' career or achievement.

Because almost all baseball discussions are relative.

[Touch'EmAll]

Take a look at 1961 - the league avg. BA was .258 - that doesn't seem so high as to call the pitching watered down. Lots of years the BA has been higher.

Maris won 2 MVP awards. Are there any other multiple MVP award winners not in HOF ?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by 100backstroke

Take a look at 1961 - the league avg. BA was .258 - that doesn't seem so high as to call the pitching watered down. Lots of years the BA has been higher.

Maris won 2 MVP awards. Are there any other multiple MVP award winners not in HOF ?

Murphy for one.