Another T206 Old Mill Blue Back??

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

You make this sound like fact while I believe there is still a lot more info needed to conclude your opinion is correct. In a world where an infinite series of events could occur you nailed it down perfectly not withstanding down to what he had for lunch that day?

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

I do not disagree it is possible. It might even be probable but it is all just conjecture. My only point was that it was written as fact and it shouldn’t be. Next thing you know you have an auction house using it in a description so on and so forth.

He then proceeded to bold font exclamation point some holiday inn type whack ass credentials in a pit bull fight type manner about how he is more right than me like a child. It is not the first time I have seen this behavior. Hey. If he wants to measure weiners with other people to make people think he has won an argument that is fine. When it happens to me I will not tolerate it and I will point it out for what it is.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by MichelaiTorres83

I do not disagree it is possible. It might even be probable but it is all just conjecture. My only point was that it was written as fact and it shouldn’t be. Next thing you know you have an auction house using it in a description so on and so forth.

He then proceeded to bold font exclamation point some holiday inn type whack ass credentials in a pit bull fight type manner about how he is more right than me like a child. It is not the first time I have seen this behavior. Hey. If he wants to measure weiners with other people to make people think he has won an argument that is fine. When it happens to me I will not tolerate it and I will point it out for what it is.

I can see that.


Ted and I disagree on some T206 stuff, sort of agree on others. I take a really technical approach which isn't always as useful. Ted has the advantage of having handled … Thousands? maybe more than 10,000 having been a collector and dealer for along time. I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute. It's not optimal for me, but works better for some. The failing I have is couching stuff I'm quite sure of in less than 100% certain terms.


It is true that we can't always really know just how something happened. But knowing how it usually happened, we can eliminate the very unlikely and focus on the more or most likely.

[Luke]

Great detective work Ron! I saw this video on youtube yesterday and had no idea it was your card. Knowing it's yours and not some random person trying to make a few bucks lends a ton of credibility to it. And it's hard to argue with the scans.

[RedsFan1941]

"I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute."

unwise

[Rhotchkiss]

Qualifying this post (again) with fact that I have a mere fraction of the T206 knowledge many others have on this board, I have some thoughts. However, first let my qualify my comments -- I want this card to be real, and if it is, I would love to own it!

Old Mills and Polar Bears had different print groups, which makes an ink-switch error unlikely. Thus, even though the blue in the Powell Old Mill looks "PBish", it is unlikely a case of failing to switch the ink after Polar Bears into Old Mills.

Contrast that with the Brown Old Mill. The Brown OM, I believe, has the same print group as the Brown Hindu -- the southern league. This makes the forgetting-to-switch-the-ink (from Hindu to OM) more (indeed very) plausible in the case of brown old mills. Then take the facts that (i) the brown in the hindu is very close to the brown in brown OM, (ii) all brown OMs are hand-cut, printers scrap, which never made it into cigarette packs - meaning the printer likely realized the mistake immediately cut up the cards, fixed the ink and moved on, and (iii) there are 10-20 known examples of Brown OMs and rarely a duplicate, meaning that likely only 1-2 sheets made it through the printing process. Based on these facts, the theory looks extremely sound that Brown OMs are real and were the product of a printing/ink error between Hindu and Old Mill on Southern Leaguers.

Can we assemble a similar chain here between the blue old mill and some other blue-backed T206? It must be Piedmont, because we seem to have ruled out Polar Bear and it cant be UZIT (and tolstoi and Carolina Brights are black, no?). Were Powell and Walsh in the same print group and is it likely, or at least possible, that they were on the same sheet? Why was the Walsh blue old mill not hand cut, like the Brown Old Mills? What is the story of the Brown Lenox, which also were not hand cut, and we can use them as anecdotal evidence in this case?

Obviously having a TPG look hard at the card to inspect its authenticity is key (and I think SGC is totally the way to go here over PSA). But TPGs make mistakes all the time (PSA more so with T206 than SGC), and so it would be great to come up with a plausible theory behind how blue old mills could even exist in the first place.

We know that a purported T206 Evers Yellow Sky Brown Hindu is fake. We know thus because we know he was printed in the Red Hindu and there are no fronts with both red and brown hindus. So we know for a fact that I really sound-looking, "i held it in my hand and it looked real", Evers Yellow Sky Brown Hindu is a fake, because that card does not come in brown hindu. In the case of the Blue Old Mills, can we put together a plausible case that explains how it is possible that both Walsh and Powell could have a blue old mill back?

[steve B]

Originally Posted by RedsFan1941

"I've gotten used to stuff being stated as absolute."

unwise

That's true, I meant it mostly in the context of how each person presents something. And just because it's presented as fact doesn't mean I automatically go with it.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That's true, I meant it mostly in the context of how each person presents something. And just because it's presented as fact doesn't mean I automatically go with it.

You may not but others do. Especially people with no or less knowledge. As time moves on newcomers are less capable of getting the context required to distinguish between the two.

You then are left with historical factoids and stuff people copy and paste around cementing a hypothesis or myth.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Luke

Great detective work Ron! I saw this video on youtube yesterday and had no idea it was your card. Knowing it's yours and not some random person trying to make a few bucks lends a ton of credibility to it. And it's hard to argue with the scans.

Thanks Luke!!

[Luke]

Ryan,

Yes, Powell and Walsh are both 150-350 Series subjects and it's very plausible they were on the same sheet. When I get a chance I'll look at Pat's Plate Scratch research to see if he has either or both players placed on sheets.

Also, the back of the Blue Old Mill Walsh shares multiple little print flaws with other Walsh Old Mills. Some people have said that the Walsh could be re-backed with a blue reprint. That is not the case. I'm not saying I know the Walsh is legit, just that it isn't as simple as a re-back.

[Al C.risafulli]

Those USB microscope scans are really, really cool.

It's certainly not outside the realm of possibility that the card is authentic. We've seen every manner of freaky print error on the fronts of T206s over the years.

A second blue back certainly makes me feel better about the first one.

-Al

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by Luke

Ryan,

Yes, Powell and Walsh are both 150-350 Series subjects and it's very plausible they were on the same sheet. When I get a chance I'll look at Pat's Plate Scratch research to see if he has either or both players placed on sheets.

Also, the back of the Blue Old Mill Walsh shares multiple little print flaws with other Walsh Old Mills. Some people have said that the Walsh could be re-backed with a blue reprint. That is not the case. I'm not saying I know the Walsh is legit, just that it isn't as simple as a re-back.

Powell and Walsh both have plate scratches but they were on separate sheets but I think it's fair to assume that they could have been on the
same Old Mill sheet because the 150/350 subjects were printed with Old Mill backs during the 350 printing and the sheet layouts changed.

I have Walsh on the left corner of sheet 2b and Ames has the same scratch and is on the left corner of 2a.

0 Ames-Walsh.jpg

0 Sheet 2A.jpg 0 Sheet 2B.jpg


I have Powell in the left of middle of Sheet 1a and Goode has the same scratch
and is in the left of middle of 1b.

Powell-Goode.jpg

0 Sheet 1A.jpg 0 Sheet 1B.jpg

[Ronnie73]

So here are the results!!! 100% no question the ink is the same as Polar Bear ink. Even the Polar Bear back, under a microscope, has small black areas within the blue, just like the Old Mill Blue I have. Here are some comparison pictures.



Here are two USB Microscope pictures of the blue Old Mill and a black Old Mill.


The next picture is of the Old Mill Blue and a Piedmont 350.

And finally, 2 pictures with the Old Mill Blue and a Polar Bear back.


And here are some last minute scans of the front and back in 1200dpi that were requested by Chris (atx840). For some reason they were resized maybe by the webpage. Here are the front and back links.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...pst3rtbtn1.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqutvylr.jpg


The proof is in the pudding... and I don't have much more pudding than the above. But will still take scanning requests and comparison photos.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Ronnie73

So here are the results!!! 100% no question the ink is the same as Polar Bear ink. Even the Polar Bear back, under a microscope, has small black areas within the blue, just like the Old Mill Blue I have. Here are some comparison pictures.



Here are two USB Microscope pictures of the blue Old Mill and a black Old Mill.


The next picture is of the Old Mill Blue and a Piedmont 350.

And finally, 2 pictures with the Old Mill Blue and a Polar Bear back.


And here are some last minute scans of the front and back in 1200dpi that were requested by Chris (atx840). For some reason they were resized maybe by the webpage. Here are the front and back links.
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...pst3rtbtn1.jpg
http://i1174.photobucket.com/albums/...psgqutvylr.jpg


The proof is in the pudding... and I don't have much more pudding than the above. But will still take scanning requests and comparison photos.

You will have to email people the larger high resolution scans. They are too big to upload here. You can post a small section of a high resolution scan though.

[Ronnie73]

The links in my post for the 1200dpi scans should work. I know it won't show the pictures in 1200dpi here. I can also email front/back scans to anyone requesting them. Just PM your email to me.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

If that Powell is fake I'm going to dig a hole and pull the dirt in after me because I clearly can't tell the difference between real and counterfeit anymore.

EDIT: This was based on the hi-res scans

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards

If that Powell is fake I'm going to dig a hole and pull the dirt in after me because I clearly can't tell the difference between real and counterfeit anymore.

I agree... These scans make this card look like the real deal and maybe the Walsh questionable. Wish I knew what comparisons were done with the Walsh when graded. They must have figured the blue ink came from somewhere. You would have thought that after it was graded by SGC, it should have been known as an Old Mill back printed in Polar Bear ink. That's if it's the same as my Powell.

[CW]

Ron, just curious if you plan to hold onto it or sell it or not sure? If you'd rather not share that here, that's obviously fine, too.

It's interesting because being more of a collector than a dealer, you may be torn between having a nice payday or keeping a super rare T206 back oddity in your collection. Either way, it's a good problem to have.

Also, I'm not sure I could wait until the National in July. It would be hard to resist sending it off to SGC to get their opinion on it.

Thanks for the additional scans.

[Ronnie73]

Originally Posted by CW

Ron, just curious if you plan to hold onto it or sell it or not sure? If you'd rather not share that here, that's obviously fine, too.

It's interesting because being more of a collector than a dealer, you may be torn between having a nice payday or keeping a super rare T206 back oddity in your collection. Either way, it's a good problem to have.

Also, I'm not sure I could wait until the National in July. It would be hard to resist sending it off to SGC to get their opinion on it.

Thanks for the additional scans.

Not really sure what I will do with it, if it's graded real. Just being a small part of T206 history is actually enough for me. I'd probably enjoy a nice T206 Plank a bit more. As far as oddities, I have plenty to keep me busy. Owning a majority of the Sweet Caporal No Prints.

Only thing is, I'm more of a PSA guy but question if PSA would even get involved in grading it. If selling it, it would probably be easier to grade with SGC.

[MichelaiTorres83]

Originally Posted by steve B

That being said, I believe Teds explanation is either what happened, or very close to it. Personally I've leaned more towards a poor cleanup of a mistake causing dark blue from contamination.

The time to remove the piedmont stone, install the Old mill stone, then setup and adjust would probably lead to having a mess with dried ink messing things up.


(I also worked in a print shop, one that cross trained us so I eventually got to do each step in the process for a short time. Not much had really changed between 1910 and the 1980-81)

I will say right now I do not believe it is real but I can be convinced by something more than guessing about how it could have happened then concluding it is real for that reason. I would like to see a full front scan before. I mean, I think that is warranted before carving it in stone as real right?