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  #1  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:51 PM
SetBuilder SetBuilder is offline
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Default Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

Saw this card at REA and thought it looked too drawn and too close to the known Parent exemplars. Figured I wouldn't have to look through too many listings on Worthpoint so I gave it a shot.

Sure enough...

First sold on eBay on July 28, 2015 as a PSA 2.5. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ent-1736998090.

Then sold at REA in their 2016 Spring auction (with JSA cert) for $2,700. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...r-fred-parent/.

[Look through posts below for the rest.]

Post #1: Fred Parent
Post #8: Billy Sullivan
Post #23: Bob Rhoades (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #59: Paddy Livingston (thanks to T206Collector)
Post #100: Frank "Homerun" Baker (thanks to Pat_R)
Post #109: Elmer Flick (thanks to bn2cardz)
Post #128: Heinie Zimmerman (thanks to Thromdog)
Post #152: Wid Conroy (thanks to Pat _R)
Post #175: Larry Doyle (thanks to t206kid)
Post #194: Jap Barbeau (thanks to rommesc)
Post #205: Red Murray (thanks to atx840)
Post #366: Eddie Cicotte (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #374: Nap Rucker
Post #446: Jesse Tannehill (thanks to Pat_R)
Other Thread: Rube Marquard

Total: 15
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File Type: jpg t206fredparentfake.jpg (79.0 KB, 4285 views)

Last edited by SetBuilder; 11-30-2018 at 01:58 PM. Reason: added new discoveries...
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  #2  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:53 PM
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Large images for reference:
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File Type: jpg t206fredparent3.jpg (78.5 KB, 4271 views)
File Type: jpg t206fredparent4.jpg (78.4 KB, 4258 views)
File Type: jpg t206fredparent5.jpg (44.8 KB, 4231 views)
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  #3  
Old 11-27-2018, 12:57 PM
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Setting aside the fact he died in 1972, what's to say that he didn't sign it in 2016?
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  #4  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:09 PM
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Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well!
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  #5  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:22 PM
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Manny, you are a total rockstar! I don’t collect autographs, but as an avid card collector and active hobby participant, I very much appreciate your efforts on pointing out these forgeries; at the least, my eyes are much more wide open now.

Ryan Hotchkiss
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  #6  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:23 PM
ejharrington ejharrington is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by T206Collector View Post
Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well!
+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!
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  #7  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:31 PM
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As I asked in the other post, has anyone gone to REA to ask who consigned the card? It should be possible to trace back and find the forger, especially when done in conjunction with the Marquard card.
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  #8  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:33 PM
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Default Fake T206 Signed Billy Sullivan

Another one...this one's a biggie at $6,600.

Sold on eBay as an SGC 30 on July 8, 2015. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lly-1734408624.

Then sold at the REA 2016 Spring auction. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...illy-sullivan/.
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File Type: jpg billysullivanfake.jpg (78.7 KB, 4239 views)
File Type: jpg billysullivan6.jpg (44.5 KB, 4215 views)
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  #9  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:34 PM
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Large images for reference:
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File Type: jpg sullivan2.jpg (59.9 KB, 4237 views)
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  #10  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:36 PM
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Oh wow, this is bad!
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  #11  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:37 PM
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Fantastic work Manny! Now if we could only get someone to wake up
and start investigating and prosecute the people responsible for
crimes like this.
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  #12  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BLongley View Post
Oh wow, this is bad!
I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.
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  #13  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ejharrington View Post
+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!
Ditto. Autos are too risky.
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  #14  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:41 PM
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Holy crap, the plot thickens....
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  #15  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:42 PM
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I'm starting to wonder if we can trace a majority of the existing signed T206s to their unsigned version through a deep Worthpoint search. This is pretty alarming.
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  #16  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SetBuilder View Post
I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.
Uh, no.... to most of us, you're a frigging machine! This is going to rock signed T206 card collecting to the core.

Was JSA the authenticator on all of the T206 fake signature cards?
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  #17  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:43 PM
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Great work! Though this is really sad.
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  #18  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:44 PM
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This is not good. This makes my heart and head hurt. I don’t have any prewar autos that aren’t football but this makes me not want to purchase anything until this crap gets sorted out.
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Last edited by Laxcat; 11-27-2018 at 01:44 PM.
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  #19  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:45 PM
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Now you've got one of my newest ones, and an expensive one to boot!



Guess I'll be calling REA and SGC now...

Edited to add that it is, indeed, really sad. Sullivan is the most I've ever paid for a signed T206 card. And I have never questioned its authenticity. Plus, it was authenticated by SGC and JSA, and in the most reputable auction house in our hobby.
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Last edited by T206Collector; 11-27-2018 at 01:51 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:46 PM
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Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

Last edited by scooter729; 11-27-2018 at 01:50 PM.
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  #21  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:53 PM
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Default Great detective work!

It's just the tip of the iceberg. Those T206, Goudey, etc vintage autograph collections are loaded with fakes. And if they are not, everyone will think so anyway.

Too much money and greed.
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  #22  
Old 11-27-2018, 01:54 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)
Those blocked ebay names change sometimes, so we either have 4 letters from the username or the user changed their name since Feb.
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  #23  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:00 PM
The Nasty Nati The Nasty Nati is offline
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I found another.
Here's the worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1737649372
And a better picture of the auto (t206collector I hope it's okay I reference your photo): http://www.signedt206.com/other-peop...ktbffyldzycqzp

The creasing is identical. There is a tobacco mark that was removed on his crotch but the missing cardboard is in the same location.
I'm sure a ton more fakes are about to be unsurfaced. This took me 2 minutes to find.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 3.53.11 PM.jpg (9.6 KB, 2646 views)
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 3.53.54 PM.jpg (10.5 KB, 2648 views)
File Type: jpg Screen Shot 2018-11-27 at 3.56.50 PM.jpg (16.1 KB, 2640 views)

Last edited by The Nasty Nati; 11-27-2018 at 02:12 PM.
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  #24  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:04 PM
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Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys
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  #25  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yanks12025 View Post
Wow.. this is about to get bad, already 4 examples in not a long time of looking.. Good work by you guys
Might move on to Goudey and Playball.
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  #26  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:09 PM
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Quote:
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Might move on to Goudey and Playball.
I know theres been talk before that a bunch of the Ruth signed Goudeys were fakes.
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  #27  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:22 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)
It's the same buyer, and I'll say it's the forger. No such thing as coincidences
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  #28  
Old 11-27-2018, 02:23 PM
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Trying to keep track of them all, the Rhoades was in Hunt Auctions, in February 2016. This one got away from me on the auction block...

https://huntauctions.com/phone/image...9&lot_num=1009
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  #29  
Old 11-27-2018, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by scooter729 View Post
Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)
The letters aren't always the same on the ID's even if it's the same buyer.

The last sale of the Parent I found was August 22 2015 on ebay.
There were two other cards purchased by the same buyer.

Parent Sale.jpg


Here's the scans from that sale

Parent.jpg

Parent Back.jpg
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  #30  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:26 PM
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I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.
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  #31  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:35 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tab View Post
I have never been interested in autographs for this reason. Way too easy for some people to copy a signature. I’m sure there are tons of fakes out there. Why trust an “experts” opinion.
The Sullivan fake is copied almost exactly from this index card: http://loveofthegameauctions.com/Lot...ventoryid=3920

Same positioning and spacing of the letters.
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Last edited by SetBuilder; 11-27-2018 at 04:35 PM.
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  #32  
Old 11-27-2018, 04:35 PM
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I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.
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  #33  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WillowGrove View Post
I want to thank Manny, Patrick, Brock and anyone else helping uncover this forger.
+1

Painful, but vital to the health of the hobby.
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  #34  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:13 PM
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Default this totally

sucks!!

paul I am feeling for you

I have a Snodgrass double signed front and back......i'll look for the scan...
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  #35  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:16 PM
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Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

Last edited by vintagebaseballcardguy; 11-27-2018 at 05:17 PM.
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  #36  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:51 PM
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I'm guessing this goes beyond T-206 and into other sets as well. I've noticed a tremendous increase in the number of autographed cards being auctioned lately. This really doesn't look good.
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  #37  
Old 11-27-2018, 05:55 PM
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While the evidence so far is damning, we shouldn't necessarily over-react either. There are lots more cards hitting the market than ever before because a generation of collectors is dying off, or selling their collection because their heirs aren't interested. I assume some of the increase in autographs is attributable to the same cause.
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  #38  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:01 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy View Post
Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk
You selling?

Lmk
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  #39  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:03 PM
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Quote:
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You selling?

Lmk
Never been interested much in the autographed card scene. So, no. This is about as disturbing as anything I have seen in the hobby. If I don't see it signed in front of me or have someone I know and supremely trust, I can't trust it is a legit auto. This is part of the reason I have largely avoided autograph collecting. I feel badly for those victimized.

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Last edited by vintagebaseballcardguy; 11-27-2018 at 06:12 PM.
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  #40  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:21 PM
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Holy smokes...someone is turning $40 cards into $5000+ cards. Good work Manny, Patrick and Brock. Should be interesting to find out who consigned these.
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  #41  
Old 11-27-2018, 06:24 PM
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Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost




http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!
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  #42  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:18 PM
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Default Fake Autographs

Quote:
Originally Posted by atx840 View Post
Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost




http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!
Glad you brought these two cards to light in order to make another critical point. If anyone thinks that only autographs require a “leap of faith”, they are only fooling themselves. For years, It’s been no secret that autograph fraud exists in the hobby. However, it is ALSO a fact that card doctoring to enhance grades and increase card values by thousands of dollars likewise has become an issue. Bottom line is in any hobby where an opportunity exists to significantly enhance value, fraud is always going to be a potential issue. The answer is NOT to stop collecting what your passion dictates, but for collectors to continue utilizing their expertise and sound judgement when purchasing their valued collectibles. The superb dectective work for these 3 forged T206s is a perfect example of the ongoing due diligence that will help minimize the criminal activity.
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  #43  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:19 PM
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Default this is

all very disturbing

holy crap! chris!

great to see you posting again
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  #44  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:37 PM
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Default Worth remembering what the authenticator said about Mastro

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of -- after Mastro had been convicted.



And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

Last edited by Leon; 11-29-2018 at 07:24 AM.
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  #45  
Old 11-27-2018, 07:40 PM
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Default Following up . . .

Just realized I should've posted that last post to the other thread about the fake autograph that SGC rejected. I'll post it there now.
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  #46  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:08 PM
Cooptown Cooptown is offline
Sc.ott Ver.renti
 
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Nice work on this gentlemen. This seems to be getting legs. This just popped up in my twitter feed.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ies-uncovered/
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  #47  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:08 PM
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conor912 conor912 is offline
C0nor D0na.hue
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy View Post
Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

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If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.
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  #48  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:13 PM
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calvindog calvindog is offline
Jeffrey Lichtman
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Quote:
Originally Posted by conor912 View Post
If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.
Sal Bando says hello.
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  #49  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:21 PM
topcat61 topcat61 is offline
Ryan
Ryan McCla.nahan
 
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Thank you for posting this, truly appreciate it. I had it out with an authenticator at SGC at the Shriner's Show on November 3rd on a related topic.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shriners+show
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  #50  
Old 11-27-2018, 08:25 PM
martyesullivan martyesullivan is offline
Marty Sullivan
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As the owner of 165 different signed, authenticated, 1933 Goudey cards, this is disturbing to say the least. I appreciate the efforts of everyone here. Hopefully this forger(s) will be uncovered sooner, rather than later.
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