American Greed-CNBC

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

So you're OK with all the scammers who prey on the elderly in real estate etc.?

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

That was a stupid question. No. Are you?

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I didn't think so, then what's the difference?

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

OK perhaps I read too much into your statement about how the elderly should do their homework.

[Snapolit1]

I knew a lawyer down south who represented an oil and gas company that would offer indigent people money for their properties, without disclosing that hours of research revealed that there were valuable gas or mineral deposits that could be sucked out of their land. Ring the doorbell with a check book in hand. Were the people happy with the deal? Probably. Were they taken advantage of? Probably. Should a buyer have to disclose significant facts not known to the seller? Grey area in a lot of ways.
I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

[spaidly]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

I agree with this and that karma is a bitch. I also believe if both parties in a deal are happy then a good deal went down. Like so much in life, nothing is black and white. We live in the grey and each of us must decide where they are comfy.

Scott

[botn]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I think there is a huge difference between getting a good deal and royally screwing someone.

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

[mantlefan]

Originally Posted by botn

Agreed. The buyer, who appears to be an expert, seems to have taken advantage of the seller, who either did or did not do their homework or enough homework. We have no idea what the buyer also would have said to the seller for them to agree to $500 for the collection but at the very least if there is gross inadequacy of consideration if the collection turned out to be worth 50K.

As a dealer I have been in a position many times to "use my expertise" to get a fantastic deal but in all instances I provided substantiation of market value to the sellers so they could make a truly informed decision on the value of what they were selling.

Yes, in my case you and Moser "used your expertise" to trim and varnish thousands of dollars worth of cards which you then sold to me and never paid a penny in restitution!

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Leon

I think it is deplorable when the elderly get scammed.
What I was referring to is when doing a card deal and I use my thousands of hours of expertise to get a good deal. Why am I not allowed to do that but lawyers use their expertise to charge hundreds of dollars (or more) an hour? Just because my knowledge isn't from formal educating (in this area) doesn't mean it's less valuable. I think using one's expertise is the way to get ahead. And that doesn't mean I have to scam to do it.

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

LOL....yeah, that is a bit steep. I think I pay about 50% and feel it's a good deal....then I go to sell and lose 5%....

And back to the original topic - I wish more authorities would get involved in the fraud in our hobby. As has been said many times, we are fortunate to have SA Brusokas in the hobby. Hopefully he will be assigned to it permanently.

.

[Sean]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

I don't know at exactly what percentage of the value I would draw the line between getting a good deal and ripping someone off. But I do find it almost laughably ironic that the buyer then turns around and complains about getting cheated.

[Jenx34]

Originally Posted by rats60

A good deal is fine. Paying 1% is another matter.

Here is the problem with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

[rats60]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

The seller didn't get what he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

[Jenx34]

Originally Posted by rats60

The seller didn't get what
he asked. The buyer made a lowball offer on something an old man didn't know what it was worth. If you are ok with offering an old man 1%, that is you, it is not everyone. Leon said he tries to offer 50%. I have offered people more than their asking price when they underprice their items. I certainly wouldn't ever offer 1%.

The problem is you are using #s you know after the fact. There is no way he knew what was exactly what was in that box, what quality and 100% sure they were reprints or commons underneath the nice cards on top. He thought there was some good stuff there and made an offer. The guy took it. In that situation, you arent sitting down at a table, inspecting each card and referring to the price guide of your choice. That's not how it works. You look at something, you make a quick judgement on its value to you, make a deal and get out. It works that way for both parties. The #s you refer to aren't known at the time. So your scenario just isn't realistic. It's easy to criticize after the fact.

My wife recently bought some old China in a pattern she was familiar with. Couple was having a moving sale and had all the dishes wrapped and packed neatly. She asked how much and was told $40. She accepted quickly thinking she could get $300 - $500 or even more if she took the time to sell them individually. Did my wife cheat or take advantage? Hell no, she gave them what they asked. We got home and found 2 pieces broken in half and many others chipped or cracked. Now we may only get $50 or maybe $100 if we're lucky. We took the risk and lost. But there were 8 other people there looking at stuff at the same time. The sellers didn't want her unpacking the entire box and inspecting every piece. There was no room or place to do so. You buy what looks good to you and you pay what the seller will take. Sometimes you win sometimes you lose. In this case, the guy won big, but because of a crook masquerading as an advocate, he didn't win as big as he could have. Stop armchair quarterbacking while watching a replay of the game and understand the reality of what happens in the moment.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Jenx34

Here is the promise with that premise. Have you ever had a garage sale? In it's best, if you're lucky, it's controlled chaos. You are trying to keep an eye on multiple people, people are asking questions giving you money for 3, 4 or 5 items and asking you to do quick math while doing everything else.

Your goal is to get rid of as much stuff as possible so you don't have to put it back up, bring it back inside or take it to a donation location. It's a lot of freaking work and usually for not a ton of money. Most people's goal is to get rid of as much crap as possible. We had one recently and my house was chaotic and cluttered for 2 weeks prior and a full week afterward.

In preparation, you put stuff together, try to organize as best as possible and put prices on things. People constantly ask you to take less than your price and you have to decide whether to say yes or tell them to piss off while holding a smile. If you research every item, it will take HOURS and you still won't find all the answers, as Leon intimated. I had some German Beer Steins that I didn't know how old they were. I tried looking them up by the markings and still couldn't find the right answer. Finally, I decided to price them at $20 for the pair because I didn't figure they were older than the 70's or 80s. They didn't sell. Still have them. What if they are much older and worth a lot? I still don't know and haven't continued to search. If someone offered me $15 for the pair I'd have gladly taken it and not looked back. So if they knew something I didn't and I sold them, I wouldn't have known. If I found out later, I'd have thought well shit... But the hours it takes to gain the knowledge Leon speaks of, especially for all kinds of household items is NOT worth it for someone having a freaking garage sale.

The other alternative is to hire a company that does estate sales, pay them to run it and their commission and hope they have the knowledge to make you more money. That doesn't happen for a simple garage sale.

Lastly, what if someone pays $50, $500 or $5,000 and finds out the items are fake? Do they show back up at the guy's house asking for their money back? Hell no.

I think it is absolutely ridiculous that people are acting like he duped the old man. Do you think the guy has the desire or the time to stand there while someone thumbs through cards with everything else going on? He offered a price and it was accepted. It's really easy in hindsight to say "I would have done this or that". I call BS. The old man got what he asked, the buyer got a rare lucky find. It is what it is, but NO ONE got taken advantage of.

Great post Chris, I agree completely.

Because of someone not knowing they was selling error versions of a card I recently picked up $100 worth of cards for $3. I am pretty sure we are both happy because I paid their full asking price.

I have also bought a complete vintage set at the buyers asking price. The cards turned out to be much nicer that what I thought I was buying. I sent the seller an addition 40% of their asking price.

[RedsFan1941]

the fact that many people's main takeaway from this episode is the garage sale transaction is Exhibit A on how mastro was able to dupe so many people. talk about not being able to keep your eye on the ball.

[Mdmtx]

With regard to the lowball price on the Goudey cards, I have a plausible theory. Just guessing, but with all the publicity cards have received in the past 30+ years, these cards may have been taken to a "reputable" card shop for appraisal and from ignorance or from larcenous intent, they were appraised as fakes. As we know our hobby is full of slicksters. The way I conduct myself in a purchase from a seller with no card experience is to make a reasonable guess at the market value and explain roughly the cost, time and risk associated with a sale of that nature. Then offer a price to purchase them. I have been turned down plenty of times, but I have bought plenty and never had a night of lost sleep from from putting the proverbial screws to someone. For those of you ok with 1% purchases from unsuspecting sellers, should heed my previous post - Karma is a bitch.

Mark Medlin