NonSports Forum

Net54baseball.com
Welcome to Net54baseball.com. These forums are devoted to both Pre- and Post- war baseball cards and vintage memorabilia, as well as other sports. There is a separate section for Buying, Selling and Trading - the B/S/T area!! If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it. . Contact the moderator at leon@net54baseball.com should you have any questions or concerns. When you click on links to eBay on this site and make a purchase, this can result in this site earning a commission. Affiliate programs and affiliations include, but are not limited to, the eBay Partner Network. Enjoy!
Net54baseball.com
Net54baseball.com
T206s on eBay
Babe Ruth Cards on eBay
t206 Ty Cobb on eBay
Ty Cobb Cards on eBay
Lou Gehrig Cards on eBay
Baseball T201-T217 on eBay
Baseball E90-E107 on eBay
T205 Cards on eBay
Baseball Postcards on eBay
Goudey Cards on eBay
Baseball Memorabilia on eBay
Baseball Exhibit Cards on eBay
Baseball Strip Cards on eBay
Baseball Baking Cards on eBay
Sporting News Cards on eBay
Play Ball Cards on eBay
Joe DiMaggio Cards on eBay
Mickey Mantle Cards on eBay
Bowman 1951-1955 on eBay
Football Cards on eBay

Go Back   Net54baseball.com Forums > Net54baseball Postwar Sportscard Forums > Postwar Baseball Cards Forum (Pre-1980)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 08-12-2017, 04:23 PM
geosluggo geosluggo is offline
George
member
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Location: Florida
Posts: 135
Default "Bob" vs "Roberto" Clemente

Topps Anglicized Roberto Clemente's name as "Bob" from 1957 to 1969, but I only recently noticed that just about every other card maker was calling him Roberto in the '60s. Included here are a '62 Salada coin, '63 Post and Fleer, '68 KDKA and Atlantic Oil and '69 Nabisco and Transogram cards.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg bob clemente.jpg (20.4 KB, 404 views)
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:22 PM
Stonepony's Avatar
Stonepony Stonepony is offline
Dave_Berg
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Florida
Posts: 1,631
Default

I thought I've read he didn't like being called "Bob" as his given name was Roberto.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:31 PM
BradH's Avatar
BradH BradH is offline
Brad
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Location: Georgia
Posts: 498
Default

As a Clemente fan, his Topps issues from the '57-69 era have always driven me nuts. I've also read before that the "Bob" references supposedly irked Clemente.

Last edited by BradH; 08-12-2017 at 06:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 08-12-2017, 06:36 PM
Peter_Spaeth's Avatar
Peter_Spaeth Peter_Spaeth is online now
Peter Spaeth
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 32,057
Default

It made even less sense because he was Roberto on his first two Topps cards.
__________________
My avatar is a sketch by my son who is an art school graduate. Some of his sketches and paintings are at
https://www.jamesspaethartwork.com/

He is available to do custom drawings in graphite, charcoal and other media. He also sells some of his works as note cards/greeting cards on Etsy under JamesSpaethArt.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 08-13-2017, 06:07 AM
bobsbbcards's Avatar
bobsbbcards bobsbbcards is offline
Bob F.
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Posts: 1,987
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonepony View Post
I thought I've read he didn't like being called "Bob" as his given name was Roberto.
How could someone not like being called "Bob"?
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 08-13-2017, 06:16 AM
irv's Avatar
irv irv is offline
D@le Irv*n
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2016
Location: Ontario, Canada.
Posts: 6,779
Default

#9

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...y-of-his-debut

9. Although many media organizations and the Topps baseball card company often referred to him as “Bob,” Clemente adamantly rejected that name and repeatedly insisted he be called Roberto.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 08-13-2017, 10:40 AM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

At least they didn't go with Bob Walker!

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 08-13-2017, 07:59 PM
hcv123 hcv123 is offline
Howard Chasser
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: NY
Posts: 3,493
Default Perhaps a better question.......

Quote:
Originally Posted by bobsbbcards View Post
How could someone not like being called "Bob"?
Is how would someone named bob like being called Roberto?!
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 08-15-2017, 08:35 PM
spaidly's Avatar
spaidly spaidly is offline
Sc0tt Sp@id
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Location: Lenoir City, TN
Posts: 309
Default

I think the Topps typesetter got lazy.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 08-15-2017, 10:19 PM
celoknob's Avatar
celoknob celoknob is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 448
Default

[QUOTE=spaidly;1691153]I think the Topps typesetter got lazy.[/QUOTE

Don't think that's it.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 08-16-2017, 09:53 AM
Zach Wheat Zach Wheat is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,776
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by irv View Post
#9

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1...y-of-his-debut

9. Although many media organizations and the Topps baseball card company often referred to him as “Bob,” Clemente adamantly rejected that name and repeatedly insisted he be called Roberto.

Thanks Irv, enjoyed reading that. I did not realize he perished on the plane he rented....and was only on the flight because the previous shipments he sent over were hijacked. What an incredible person.

Z
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-16-2017, 10:35 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hcv123 View Post
Is how would someone named bob like being called Roberto?!
I have a friend that we have called Roberto, he doesn't mind it. Bob Prince was close friends with Roberto and always called him Bob or Bobby. I think that the root of the problem is the racism and bigotry against Spanish speaking people that Roberto faced when he came to the continental United States from Puerto Rico. Some of those media members that called him Bob in their articles, in the same article made fun of his broken English.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-16-2017, 10:42 AM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

This graph shows Topps was really in the minority during this time.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-30-2017, 06:01 PM
Empty77 Empty77 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Posts: 234
Default

Neat graph. Extra insulting is that they happily named his caucasian contemporaries by whatever name they preferred (e.g., Sandy Koufax rather than Sanford, in fact even putting Sandy in quotes on his '55 card, so it's not like they didn't know it wasn't his formal name), but for Clemente they assign him a name he doesn't want to replace his actual name. That was f'd-up.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-30-2017, 06:03 PM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

Also weird is that other players with Latin names tended to keep them on their cards these same years. Example: Luis Aparicio.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-30-2017, 06:13 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Racism, plain and simple.


see also 'Chief' Bender, etc.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:04 PM
Big Six's Avatar
Big Six Big Six is offline
M@tt McC@rthy
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,485
Default "Bob" vs "Roberto" Clemente

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
Racism, plain and simple.





see also 'Chief' Bender, etc.


Yet Jacoby Ellsbury's nickname is Chief as he had that on his Player's Weekend jersey...just sayin'...

Jacoby Ellsbury: "Chief"
Ellsbury is part Navajo, and he is honoring his heritage this weekend with a nickname a lot of his teammates have called him over the years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mlb...names.amp.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
M@tt McC@arthy
I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix.

Last edited by Big Six; 08-31-2017 at 07:05 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:14 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Six View Post
Yet Jacoby Ellsbury's nickname is Chief as he had that on his Player's Weekend jersey...just sayin'...

Jacoby Ellsbury: "Chief"
Ellsbury is part Navajo, and he is honoring his heritage this weekend with a nickname a lot of his teammates have called him over the years.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.mlb...names.amp.html


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's understandable that not every member of a given minority has an issue with race-specific nicknames.

I'm Guessing that it is also true that Jacob Ellsbury's personal connection to his cultural past may not be as strong as those who, in the first half of the 20th century (at least) were the objects of far worse abuse than the playful 'Chief' called out Ellsbury's way.

IMO, the root of racism is not in the actual word, but rather the intent behind that word.

I doubt very seriously if Jacoby's teammates are aiming to demean him by calling him that and his choosing to use it for the 'nickname event', indicates that.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:20 PM
Big Six's Avatar
Big Six Big Six is offline
M@tt McC@rthy
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,485
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by clydepepper View Post
It's understandable that not every member of a given minority has an issue with race-specific nicknames.



I'm Guessing that it is also true that Jacob Ellsbury's personal connection to his cultural past may not be as strong as those who, in the first half of the 20th century (at least) were the objects of far worse abuse than the playful 'Chief' called out Ellsbury's way.



IMO, the root of racism is not in the actual word, but rather the intent behind that word.



I doubt very seriously if Jacoby's teammates are aiming to demean him by calling him that and his choosing to use it for the 'nickname event', indicates that.


Completely agree. My softball buddies all call me "Mick" (I'm Irish and a McCarthy) and I take no offense...surely things would be different 100+ years ago as Mick was a negative term. Intent makes a difference. Just want to point out that we also have the power to dictate certain things. Ellsbury wears Chief as a badge of honor...hard to turn that around and take it in a negative connotation as he owns that nickname. Guess that's the way I look at team names like Braves and Redskins. I see them as being homages and something to take pride in, not racist. But I digress...


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
M@tt McC@arthy
I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-31-2017, 07:23 PM
Big Six's Avatar
Big Six Big Six is offline
M@tt McC@rthy
Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
Location: New England
Posts: 1,485
Default "Bob" vs "Roberto" Clemente

BTW...Bender, too, embraced his nickname...had it emblazoned on his tombstone...so I think he didn't necessarily see it as racist...




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
__________________
M@tt McC@arthy
I collect Hal Chase, Diamond Stars (PSA 5 or better), 1951 Bowman (Raw Ex or better), 1954 Topps (PSA 7 or better), 1956 Topps (Raw Ex or better), 3x5 Hall of Fame Autographs and autographed Perez Steele Postcards. You can see my collection by going to http://www.collectorfocus.com/collection/BigSix.

Last edited by Big Six; 08-31-2017 at 07:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 09-02-2017, 10:53 AM
avery1328 avery1328 is offline
member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 19
Default

Same Company that will not show Chief Wahoo anymore on their cards..
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:35 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by avery1328 View Post
Same Company that will not show Chief Wahoo anymore on their cards..
They don't call Roberto Clemente "Bob" anymore either.
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 09-02-2017, 01:39 PM
brian1961 brian1961 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,349
Default

I think you guys are making way too big of a deal over this. In the 60s I always knew him as "Bob", and the announcers generally referred to him as "Bob". Maybe by the early 70s, as he made his preference known, fans, announcers, baseball card manufacturers adjusted. I think it was kind of tough for Topps to put his formal first name on a card, particularly little ones as the Bazookas. You're taking this as if it was a personal slam, and it was not.

By the early 70s, I noticed him being referred to as "Roberto", and I simply changed. I've always preferred addressing people as they themselves prefer to be called. It's simple respect.

Did you ever call Bert Campaneris by his formal first name, Dagoberto? Fortunately he also had a nickname, "Campy". Back in the day, cards, announcers, and The Sporting News said "Bert". No big deal.

---Brian Powell
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 09-02-2017, 02:27 PM
JollyElm's Avatar
JollyElm JollyElm is offline
D@rrΣn Hu.ghΣs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cardboard Land
Posts: 7,802
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by brian1961 View Post
I think you guys are making way too big of a deal over this. In the 60s I always knew him as "Bob", and the announcers generally referred to him as "Bob". Maybe by the early 70s, as he made his preference known, fans, announcers, baseball card manufacturers adjusted. I think it was kind of tough for Topps to put his formal first name on a card, particularly little ones as the Bazookas. You're taking this as if it was a personal slam, and it was not.

By the early 70s, I noticed him being referred to as "Roberto", and I simply changed. I've always preferred addressing people as they themselves prefer to be called. It's simple respect.

Did you ever call Bert Campaneris by his formal first name, Dagoberto? Fortunately he also had a nickname, "Campy". Back in the day, cards, announcers, and The Sporting News said "Bert". No big deal.

---Brian Powell
A-frickin'-men!!!!
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land

https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm

Looking to trade? Here's my bucket:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706

“I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.”
Casey Stengel

Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s.

Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 09-02-2017, 03:47 PM
Republicaninmass Republicaninmass is offline
T3d $h3rm@n
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 8,435
Default

Or Odbert Hamric .....Bert
__________________
"Trolling Ebay right now" ©

Always looking for signed 1952 topps as well as variations and errors
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 09-02-2017, 04:07 PM
JollyElm's Avatar
JollyElm JollyElm is offline
D@rrΣn Hu.ghΣs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cardboard Land
Posts: 7,802
Default

I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they prefer to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Bailey BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land

https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm

Looking to trade? Here's my bucket:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706

“I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.”
Casey Stengel

Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s.

Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow.

Last edited by JollyElm; 09-02-2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Spelled Bailey wrong.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 09-02-2017, 05:01 PM
frankbmd's Avatar
frankbmd frankbmd is offline
Fr@nk Burke++
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Between the 1st tee and the 19th hole
Posts: 7,391
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyElm View Post
I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they preferred to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Baily BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda
If all the Roberts are Bob or Bobby, I would suggest "Bobo" or "Bobbyo".

You can call me Franco, just don't call me Julio (It's not my name).
__________________
FRANK:BUR:KETT - RAUCOUS SPORTS CARD FORUM MEMBER AND MONSTER NUMBER FATHER.

GOOD FOR THE HOBBY AND THE FORUM WITH A VAULT IN AN UNDISCLOSED LOCATION FILLED WITH NON-FUNGIBLES


274/1000 Monster Number


Nearly*1000* successful B/S/T transactions completed from 2012 to 2024.
Over 680 sales with satisfied Board members served.
If you want fries with your order, just speak up.
Thank you all.



Now nearly PQ.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 09-02-2017, 08:01 PM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyElm View Post
I know plenty of Roberts, and it doesn't matter what they prefer to be called, everyone will immediately default to the name Bob. Just like Michael. I have a few in my extended family, and if they want to be called "Michael," it doesn't matter. Within 5 minutes of meeting them, people are immediately referring to them as Mike. It's human nature, not frickin' racism.

Let's look at the 1972 Topps set, because I have it on hand. There isn't a single card with Robert as a first name. Not one. Even a bunch of Roberto Clemente's teammates were named Robert, but all of their cards show a form of Bob. Was Topps guilty of racism in regards to all of these players, even the white people???? Isn't it reasonable to assume that some of these players preferred to be called Robert, and not Bob or a derivative of it???

(Didn't research all the birth names of these players, but logic dictates that almost all of them had/have the birth name of Robert.)
Bob Tolan
Bobby Valentine
Rob Gardner
Bob Johnson
Bob Gebhard
Bob Barton
Bob Barton IA
Bob Oliver
Bobby Murcer LL
Bob Gibson
Bob Reynolds
Bob O’Brien
Bobby Bolin
Bobby Floyd
Bob Grich
Bob Watson
Bobby Heise
Bob Montgomery
Bob Miller
Bob Robertson
Bob Robertson IA
Bob Lemon
Bob Bailey BP
Bob Bailey
Bob Locker
Bob Moose
Bobby Wine
Bob Aspromonte
Bobby Knoop
Bob Fenwick
Bob Stinson
Bobby Pfeil
Bobby Murcer
Bobby Murcer IA
Bobby Bonds
Bobby Bonds IA
Bob Veale
Bob Burda

I'm pretty sure every one of the 'Bobs'/Roberts you listed were born in the United States.

Roberto Clemente was born in a totally different culture.

Surely, you are not trying to compare Roberto being called Bobby to Robert Lemon or Robert Bonds being called Bob or Bobby.

When Senior Clemente played, it WAS INDEED a form of racism.


.
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 09-02-2017, 09:44 PM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

http://www.espn.com/blog/onenacion/p...ntes-number-21

throughout Clemente’s 17-year career (which began eight years after Robinson's), this proud black Puerto Rican dealt with racial, cultural and language issues head-on, even when he was mocked by sportswriters for his accent or when he couldn’t even stay with his white Pirates teammates in the segregated South.

Something as simple as a baseball card labeled “Bob Clemente” became the symbol of the cultural arrogance Roberto Clemente experienced daily.
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 09-02-2017, 09:49 PM
JollyElm's Avatar
JollyElm JollyElm is offline
D@rrΣn Hu.ghΣs
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Cardboard Land
Posts: 7,802
Default

That's simply your opinion. If Topps was calling every single Robert a form of "Bob" on their cards, why wouldn't they do the same thing with Roberto Clemente? Especially since there weren't many (if any?) Robertos around the league. Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe. Is it racist that Topps called him Tony? Or is it just simply the way things are?? Anthony or Antonio becomes Tony in baseball shorthand. Roberto becomes Bob. Nothing nefarious, methinks.
__________________
All the cool kids love my YouTube Channel:
Elm's Adventures in Cardboard Land

https://www.youtube.com/@TheJollyElm

Looking to trade? Here's my bucket:
https://www.flickr.com/photos/152396...57685904801706

“I was such a dangerous hitter I even got intentional walks during batting practice.”
Casey Stengel

Spelling "Yastrzemski" correctly without needing to look it up since the 1980s.

Overpaying yesterday is simply underpaying tomorrow.

Last edited by JollyElm; 09-02-2017 at 09:49 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #31  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:51 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,833
Default

Quote:
Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe
You believe incorrectly.
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #32  
Old 09-02-2017, 11:59 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth View Post
It made even less sense because he was Roberto on his first two Topps cards.
Indeed.
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #33  
Old 09-03-2017, 04:24 AM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

This is from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, if anyone remembers what that is!!

"While Clemente amassed a mountain of impressive statistics during his career, he was often mocked by the print media in the United States for his heavy Spanish accent. Clemente was also subjected to the doublediscrimination*of being a foreigner and being black in a racially segregated society. Although the media tried to call him “Bob” or “Bobby” and many of his baseball cards use “Bob,” Clemente explicitly rejected those nicknames, stating in no uncertain terms that his name was Roberto. There was also confusion over the correct form of his*surname. For 27 years the plaque at the National Baseball Hall of Fame read “Roberto Walker Clemente,” mistakenly placing his mother’s maiden name before his father’s surname. Only in 2000 was it changed to its proper Latin American form, Roberto Clemente Walker."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #34  
Old 09-03-2017, 06:08 AM
clydepepper's Avatar
clydepepper clydepepper is offline
Raymond 'Robbie' Culpepper
Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Location: Columbus, GA
Posts: 7,026
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jason.1969 View Post
This is from the Encyclopedia Brittanica, if anyone remembers what that is!!

"While Clemente amassed a mountain of impressive statistics during his career, he was often mocked by the print media in the United States for his heavy Spanish accent. Clemente was also subjected to the doublediscrimination*of being a foreigner and being black in a racially segregated society. Although the media tried to call him “Bob” or “Bobby” and many of his baseball cards use “Bob,” Clemente explicitly rejected those nicknames, stating in no uncertain terms that his name was Roberto. There was also confusion over the correct form of his*surname. For 27 years the plaque at the National Baseball Hall of Fame read “Roberto Walker Clemente,” mistakenly placing his mother’s maiden name before his father’s surname. Only in 2000 was it changed to its proper Latin American form, Roberto Clemente Walker."

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk

Great Info, Jason. Thanks!

-
__________________
.
"A life is not important except in the impact it has on others lives" - Jackie Robinson

“If you have a chance to make life better for others and fail to do so, you are wasting your time on this earth.”- Roberto Clemente
Reply With Quote
  #35  
Old 09-03-2017, 07:11 AM
rats60's Avatar
rats60 rats60 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 2,968
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JollyElm View Post
That's simply your opinion. If Topps was calling every single Robert a form of "Bob" on their cards, why wouldn't they do the same thing with Roberto Clemente? Especially since there weren't many (if any?) Robertos around the league. Tony Oliva's real name is Antonio, I believe. Is it racist that Topps called him Tony? Or is it just simply the way things are?? Anthony or Antonio becomes Tony in baseball shorthand. Roberto becomes Bob. Nothing nefarious, methinks.
Show me your Topps cards of John Marichal, Roland Cepeda, Rich Carty, Lou Aparicio or Tiant, Joe Pagan or Cardinal, etc. Topps made an error on his card in 1957 and it took until 1970 to correct it despite Clemente publicly stating his name is Roberto not Bob. They were also incorrect everytime they listed his name as Roberto Walker Clemente, the same as the Hall of Fame. His name is Roberto Enrique Clemente Walker. Over time people learn and correct their mistakes.

I don't know that anyone has said Topps was racist, there is no evidence of it or it not just being a mistake. However, there definitely were people who were racists that used Bob to try to get under Clemente's skin. Just like articles that were clearly racist making fun of his accent. Or people who wouldn't let him eat with his teammates, stay in the same hotel, etc. We shouldn't try to rewrite history to cover up our mistakes.
Reply With Quote
  #36  
Old 09-03-2017, 07:34 AM
Hot Springs Bathers Hot Springs Bathers is offline
Mike Dugan
Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2010
Posts: 1,052
Default

I just saw an old interview with Willie Stargell on MLB. When asked about Clemente he twice referred to him as "Bobby."

I don't think Stargell would have used that name if Clemente did not approve while teammates.
Reply With Quote
  #37  
Old 09-03-2017, 10:05 AM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,833
Default

Just re-watched a little bit of Game 7 from the 1960 World Series on youtube-- I can only stand a little at a time given that the wrong team won. Anyway, I noted that the announcer called him Roberto when he came to the plate.

I grew up in an American League area during that time, and only saw the NL occasionally on TV. Like every other kid playing in the sandlots, backyards and parks, though, we all tried to emulate our favorite players and debated who was best. Not once in those instances did any of us refer to "Bob" Clemente. Small and maybe irrelevant sample, I know, but just sayin. Don't know where we were getting our information, but it was always Roberto. Oh, and we all collected baseball cards too.

Like the inimitable Mr. Spaeth observed, it is strange Topps got it right for the first two years and then changed the name. I could see it if the player requested or maybe if it just became common knowledge that's how he was called (e.g. John then "Boog" Powell), but that's not what happened here, and there is some evidence the player did not like the name Topps assigned to him. One wonders why the company changed it back to Roberto so many years later as well.

The OP made the observation that seemingly every other card manufacturer during the time got it right (although Transogram had one of each). Fair question as to why Topps went the other way, and IMO the other posters' takes on possible reasons seem legitimate.
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.

Last edited by nolemmings; 09-03-2017 at 10:12 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #38  
Old 09-03-2017, 12:37 PM
MikeGarcia MikeGarcia is online now
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,903
Default Note The Flip :




...Doctor Beckett got it correct...

..
Reply With Quote
  #39  
Old 09-03-2017, 01:22 PM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

From the SABR bio of Pirates broadcaster Roberto Prince...

"Over the years, Clemente and Prince became close. Prince was one of the few people, perhaps the only one, who regularly got away with referring to Clemente as "Bob" or "Bobby," an Americanization of his name that the proud Clemente despised.*"

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #40  
Old 09-03-2017, 01:25 PM
jason.1969's Avatar
jason.1969 jason.1969 is offline
Jason A. Schwartz
Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2014
Location: Chicago suburbs
Posts: 1,902
Default

Am curious who at Topps--if anyone--decides what name to put on a player's card. One possibility could even be that Topps jist worked off some list provided by the teams. Anyone know?

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G920A using Tapatalk
__________________
Thanks,
Jason

Collecting interests and want lists at https://jasoncards.wordpress.com/201...nd-want-lists/
Reply With Quote
  #41  
Old 09-03-2017, 04:35 PM
Cliff Bowman's Avatar
Cliff Bowman Cliff Bowman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near Atlanta
Posts: 2,844
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nolemmings View Post
You believe incorrectly.
Technically, Darren is correct. Oliva was born Antonio Oliva Lopez Hernandez Javique. When he arrived in the USA in 1961 he used the paperwork of his younger brother Pedro, Jr to make it appear that he was eighteen rather than his true age of twenty one. The name stuck throughout his career and he had it legally changed to Tony Pedro Oliva in the 1990's.

Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 09-03-2017 at 05:31 PM. Reason: Grammar
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 09-03-2017, 05:20 PM
brian1961 brian1961 is offline
Member
 
Join Date: May 2009
Posts: 1,349
Default

Doesn't, or in this case, didn't, Topps have a questionaire for each player to fill out that would provide the company with their correct information? Meaning, if Roberto filled one out for 1955, he naturally would have written, "Roberto", and Topps dutifully copied that.

Now, if you're really upset about your Clemente cards that have "Bob" instead of the proper "Roberto", look, I'll help ya out. Just send all those cards to me and I promise I will enjoy and respect them, as is. When I refer to them in front of my collecting chums, I will endeavor to address them as my neat Roberto Clementes that collectors gave to me 'cause they couldn't stand 'em anymore!!!

----Brian Powell
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 09-03-2017, 09:08 PM
nolemmings's Avatar
nolemmings nolemmings is online now
Todd Schultz
Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Phoenix
Posts: 3,833
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Cliff Bowman View Post
Technically, Darren is correct. Oliva was born Antonio Oliva Lopez Hernandez Javique. When he arrived in the USA in 1961 he used the paperwork of his younger brother Pedro, Jr to make it appear that he was eighteen rather than his true age of twenty one. The name stuck throughout his career and he had it legally changed to Tony Pedro Oliva in the 1990's.
You might want to tell that to SABR biographer Peter Bjarkman, who has it just the opposite:

"As Oliva himself recounts the events, his February signing allowed only a few short weeks before a scheduled departure for spring training in the United States. The cramped time frame created a significant problem because he lacked a passport. But since his brother Antonio (older by Oliva’s telling) did possess proper documentation, a switch was hurriedly arranged and the hopeful ballplayer was cleared to leave his homeland with obviously illegitimate paperwork. The Twins’ timely offer and the availability of his brother’s passport papers enabled an escape from Cuba in the immediate aftermath of the 1959 Castro-led revolution and thus at the precise time of worsening Cuba-USA relations. One fateful consequence for the future was that the youngster would become known by a brother’s name and not his own, a fate he could never shake despite later legally changing his name in U.S. courts to Pedro Oliva Jr. (actually his rightful given name in Cuba). An equally devastating consequence was the fact that worsening relations between Washington and the newly installed Castro regime would soon block any possibilities of returning to his beloved homeland and his family homestead for decades into the future.

There has been considerable controversy surrounding Oliva’s actual birth date, with 1938, 1940 and 1941 all appearing as alternative choices in standard baseball reference works and various on-line sources. 7 The ballplayer’s own account in his autobiography attests that he was the second son, born in 1941 and preceded by older sibling Antonio.."
__________________
“Hypocrisy is a tribute vice pays to virtue” - Francois de La Rochefoucauld.

If we are to have another contest in the near future of our national existence, I predict that the dividing line will not be Mason and Dixon's but between patriotism and intelligence on the one side, and superstition, ambition and ignorance on the other. - Ulysses S. Grant, military commander, 18th US President.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 09-03-2017, 10:33 PM
Cliff Bowman's Avatar
Cliff Bowman Cliff Bowman is offline
Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Near Atlanta
Posts: 2,844
Default

After reading the SABR article, I agree that it's very plausible that his birth name is Pedro, Jr., and that he used his brother Antonio's birth certificate so that he could obtain a passport to gain entrance into the US. That would mean that his Wikipedia page and the Baseball Almanac are both wrong.

Last edited by Cliff Bowman; 09-03-2017 at 10:34 PM. Reason: Missed a word
Reply With Quote
Reply




Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
1969-topps complete set, high grade,,"""SOLD"""" mightyq 1950 to 1959 Baseball cards- B/S/T 0 09-10-2014 01:28 PM
Roberto clemente signed autograph cut bio booklet $225 "SOLD" cardcollectorguru Autographs & Game Used B/S/T 13 10-01-2013 08:06 PM
EBAY 1969 Topps Roberto Clemente Signed PSA/DNA Slabbed Up For Auction "ONE DAY LEFT" cardcollectorguru Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T 0 12-18-2012 07:41 PM
"WOW" Ebay Auction 1969 Topps Roberto Clemente Signed Autograph card PSA/DNA Slabbed cardcollectorguru Ebay, Auction and other Venues Announcement- B/S/T 0 12-14-2012 07:11 PM
Wanted: April 10, 2006 Sports Illustrated Article "The Meaning of Roberto Clemente" Archive Everything Else, Football, Non-Sports etc.. B/S/T 1 04-23-2006 06:52 AM


All times are GMT -6. The time now is 05:44 PM.


ebay GSB