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#1
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
![]() ![]() ![]() TheT206 set includes exactly 48 Southern League (SL) subjects....34 of which were printed with 3 different backs (brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350). And, the other 14 of these cards were printed with just OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs. ![]() 34 subjects with brown HINDU, OLD MILL, and PIEDMONT 350 backs Bay Bernhard Breitenstein Carey Coles Cranston Ellam Foster Fritz Greminger Guiheen Helm Hickman Hooker Howard (Savannah) Jordan (Atlanta) Kiernan Lafitte Lipe Manion McCauley Molesworth Mullaney Otey Paige Perdue Persons Reagan Revelle Ryan Shaughnessy Sid Smith (Atlanta) Thornton Violat 14 subjects with only OLD MILL and PIEDMONT 350 backs Bastian Hart (Little Rock) Hart (Montgomery) King Lentz Miller Orth Rockenfeld Seitz Smith (Shreveport) Stark Thebo Westlake White (Houston) Stay tuned....additional info regarding these Southern Leaguer's will follow. Including the Brown OLD MILL backs of some of the SL cards. And, collecting the "Quadruplicate" sub-set of the twenty Southern Association cards. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 07-10-2017 at 03:57 PM. Reason: Correct typo. |
#2
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Interesting Ted. I'm looking forward to reading your theory about why some SL were not printed with a Hindu back.
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#3
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Hi Sean
The timeline of the print runs of the 48 subjects in the Southern League (SL) series tells us the story. Circa..Summer > Fall 1909, the 1st press run of the SLer's (34 subjects) were printed with HINDU backs. Circa..late 1909 > early 1910, the OLD MILL press runs started and the following 14 subjects were added to the SL series (total = 48 subjects)...... Hart (Little Rock) Hart (Montgomery) King (Danville) Lentz (Little Rock) Orth (Lynchburg) Rockenfeld (Montgomery) Seitz (Norfolk) Westlake (Danville) Texas League Bastian (San Antonio) Molly Miller (Dallas) Carlos Smith (Shreveport) Stark (San Antonio) Thebo (Waco) Foley White (Houston) Circa..Spring 1910, the PIEDMONT 350 cards were printed on all 48 - SL. Surveys indicate that these 14 additional SL subjects were were printed with PIEDMONT 350 backs in greater quantity than those of the original 34 subjects were. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 07-11-2017 at 01:38 PM. Reason: Modified statement. |
#4
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Hi Ted,
I have always thought that the print run of the latter 14 SLers started/ended at the same time. Two groups: 34 150/350s and 14 350-onlys. What is your reason for parsing out the 6 Texas Leaguers? Scot |
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Hi Scot
My recollection is, that years ago, you and I came up with 3 print runs on the So. Lgrs. I've searched for this info in the Net54 archives, but I haven't any luck finding our discussion. Am I imagining this, or did we arrive at such a timeline in the printing of these 48 cards ? TED Z . |
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Heitman thought the 6 Texas Leaguers formed their own group but they have always been grouped with the other 8 non-Hindu SLers in my mind. Scot |
#7
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I found an ad that I think might be important on the timeline of the printing of southern league series with Old Mill backs. The ad was in an August 14 1909 Tampa paper. With the cards already packaged and in transit in mid August I would think the printing would have had to have started in late spring or early summer. img650.jpg Last edited by Pat R; 10-11-2018 at 12:12 PM. |
#8
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Listed in Post #516 here are all the T206's which have been confirmed (to date) with the DRUM back.
The following lists all the possible T206's which have yet to be found with the DRUM back. ![]() 350-only series (67 subjects not yet confirmed) Abbott Anderson Arndt Beck Beckley Bender (trees) Blackburne Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burns Butler Campbell Carrigan Chappelle Chase (portrait-blue) Chase (dark cap) Clancy Clymer Collins (A's) Cravath Cree Doolan (fielding) Dubuc Dunn (Baltimore) Dunn (Brooklyn) Dygert Easterly Ferguson Flanagan Fromme Ganzel Bill Graham (St Louis) Grimshaw Hall Hannifan Hoffman (Providence) Howard (Chicago) Hulswitt Jones (Detroit) Kruger Lord Malarkey Marquard (portrait) Mathewson (dark cap) McCormick Mc Elveen McGinley McGinnity McGlynn Merritt Miller (Pittsburg) Oberlin O'Brien O'Neill Paskert Phelan Poland Quillen Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Stanage Jack White (Buffalo) Wilson Wright Irv Young 350/460 series (1 subject not yet confirmed) Mullin (batting) If any of you have any of these guys listed above with a DRUM back, PLEASE show-n-tell us about it here. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-06-2019 at 09:08 AM. Reason: Updated list. |
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Switching back to T205 DRUM's.....after completing my 209-card T205 set [included the Hoblitzell (no stats)],
I continued my T205 "adventure" by forming these A-B-C-D sub-sets. Here is an example of my favorite...…. . ![]() ![]() I've been searching for the Huggins / DRUM for quite a number of years. Any help here is greatly appreciated. T205 DRUM's or T206 DRUM's......if you have them, why not post them here. TED Z . |
#10
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* * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Reflections, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * *
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() As we all know, the Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations were printed only with POLAR BEAR backs. This is because the POLAR BEAR timeline coincided with the trades of these two guys from their former New York teams. Both of them started the 1910 season with their respective St Louis teams. By May 1910, both of them were re-assigned to the Eastern (International) League. Demmitt to Montreal and O'Hara to his hometown team, Toronto. American Lithographic printed 250 different subjects with the POLAR BEAR backs....which include subjects in the 350-only series, the 350/460 series and the 460-only series. As rare as these 2 cards seem to be, you may be surprised to find out how many of them are in circulation. I have a fair estimate of how many Demmitt and O'Hara St Louis variations are currently in circulation. But, before I give you my number, let us hear your guesstimate ? ![]() ![]() ![]() Imperial Tobacco (C46)....Eastern (International) League cards (1912) ![]() TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 07-11-2019 at 08:47 PM. Reason: Correct typo. |
#11
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As I mentioned before, there is so much info that I can't seem to get a good, solid grip on it all. One question I had is, on the SLers, are there factory variations as well as the three (or two) brand variations?
Any info is greatly appreciated and thank you for sharing all of this information that you've put together! -kin Quote:
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T36 (1911 ATC Auto Drivers): 25/25 100% complete T36 Master set: 69/100 69% complete T210 Fort Worth Panthers: 14/16 88% complete (need Morris & Weatherford) T206/T213 Scoops Carey back run: 4/4 !00% complete Focus: open wheel/Indy 500 cards (1911 ATC Auto Drivers (T36), 1954 Stark & Wetzel 500 Winners, 1960 Parkhurst Indy Speedway Winners & 1960s Marhoefer Indy 500), match books & post cards. Successful purchases from dnanln, pre1960sets, jp1216 & sebie43; RAKs from CW & LuckyLarry |
#12
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Hi Kin
I appreciate your kind compliments. The answer to your question is...... OLD MILL and PIEDMONT are Factory #25. HINDU is Factory #649. Kin, it's a complicated set, so feel free to email me regarding any questions you have...... tedzan11@comcast.net TED Z . |
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Thank you so much, Ted. I'm working on the T36 set and in it, each card has a Hassan and Mecca back, and each of those has a Factory 30 and a Factory 649 back. Wasn't sure if that might be the case on these.
-kin Quote:
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T36 (1911 ATC Auto Drivers): 25/25 100% complete T36 Master set: 69/100 69% complete T210 Fort Worth Panthers: 14/16 88% complete (need Morris & Weatherford) T206/T213 Scoops Carey back run: 4/4 !00% complete Focus: open wheel/Indy 500 cards (1911 ATC Auto Drivers (T36), 1954 Stark & Wetzel 500 Winners, 1960 Parkhurst Indy Speedway Winners & 1960s Marhoefer Indy 500), match books & post cards. Successful purchases from dnanln, pre1960sets, jp1216 & sebie43; RAKs from CW & LuckyLarry |
#14
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Hi Kin K. No, it's not the case on the Southern League T206 cards. The T36 (Auto Drivers) cards were printed and issued approx. the same time the T201 and T202 BB cards were. The MECCA and HASSAN backs on these BB cards, respectively, have both the Factory #30 and a Factory #649 backs. My experience in completing the T201 set (and still working on the T202 set) has been that the Factory #649 backs are more plentiful than the Factory #30 backs. Is this difference also true for your T36 cards ? TED Z . |
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Ted,
The sample size of cards that I've been able to verify and analyze is very small. Sometimes I can't see the back scans to verify that aspect. In the Huggins & Scott auction that ended this week, there was a complete set but only the fronts were pictured. What I've found so far is Mecca 30 backs being the most plentiful. The other three brand/factory combinations have similar numbers. I'm not confident this will hold up, as I've been looking into this for less than two years. Thanks again for your great, informative thread! -kin Quote:
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T36 (1911 ATC Auto Drivers): 25/25 100% complete T36 Master set: 69/100 69% complete T210 Fort Worth Panthers: 14/16 88% complete (need Morris & Weatherford) T206/T213 Scoops Carey back run: 4/4 !00% complete Focus: open wheel/Indy 500 cards (1911 ATC Auto Drivers (T36), 1954 Stark & Wetzel 500 Winners, 1960 Parkhurst Indy Speedway Winners & 1960s Marhoefer Indy 500), match books & post cards. Successful purchases from dnanln, pre1960sets, jp1216 & sebie43; RAKs from CW & LuckyLarry |
#16
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * *
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() One of the early and very significant T206 thread was posted in June 2006 by Barry Arnold, titled T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection ? This thread inspired lot's of brainstorming between Net54ers regarding various aspects of T206 cards. Surveys and new theory's were explored, resulting in 363 posts which you'll find very interesting and informative. The El Principe de Gales (EPDG) brand dates back to 1850's. Its founder, Vicente Martínez Ybor, started producing Cigars in Havana, Cuba. In 1869, he fled from Cuba to Key West, Florida where he continued manufacturing EPDG cigars. In 1885, he moved to Tampa, FL where he built a larger factory which produced his EPDG cigars. Note that the EPDG cigarettes were manufactured at Factory #17 in Virginia. If any one on this forum knows where this Factory was located, please chime in....Thanx. ![]() .... ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() To date, there are 284 confirmed T206 cards with the EPDG back.....they are listed here as a function of their respective T206 series. 150/350 Series................83 subjects ![]() ![]() Abbaticchio (brown sleeves) Ball (New York) Bates Beaumont Bender (portrait) Bergen (bat) Bowerman Bradley (portrait) Bresnahan (portrait) M. Brown (portrait) Camnitz (arms folded) Chance (red portrait) Chase (pink portrait) Chase (white cap) Chesbro Cicotte Clarke (portrait) JJ Clarke Coveleski Crandall (no cap) Criger Dahlen (Boston) Harry Davis (A's) Delehanty (Washington) Donlin (seated) Donovan (portrait) Dooin Doolin Durham Evers (portrait) Ewing Ganley Gibson Gilbert Griffith (portrait) Hemphill Herzog (New York) Hinchman (Cleveland) Jennings (portrait) Johnson (portrait) Tom Jones (St Louis) Jordan (portrait) Karger Keeler (portrait) Keeler (bat) Killian (pitching) Kling Konetchy (glove high) Lajoie (throwing) Leach (portrait) Lindaman Lobert Lumley Lundgren (Cubs) Magee (portrait) Marquard (hands at side) McQuillan (ball in hand) Mullin (throwing) O'Leary (portrait) Overall (portrait) Owen Pastorius Powell Ritchey Rucker (portrait) Schaefer (Detroit) Schlei (catching) Seymour (bat) Shaw (St Louis) Shipke Spade Spencer Steinfeldt (portrait) Stovall (portrait) L Tannehill (Washington) Tinker (portrait) Turner Wagner (bat on left) Walsh Weimer Wilhelm (arms at chest) CYoung (portrait) CYoung (bare hand) 350-only Series................102 subjects ![]() ![]() Abbott Anderson Atz Barbeau Barger Batch Beck Bender (trees) Blackburne Bliss Brain Brashear Bresnahan (bat) Burchell Burke Burns Bush Campbell Casey Collins (A's) Collins (Minneapolis) Congalton Cravath Cree Davidson Demmitt (New York) Dineen Joe Doyle (hands over head) Dubuc Dunn (Baltimore) Dunn (Brooklyn) Easterly Egan Evans Fiene (portrait) Fiene (throwing) Flanagan Freeman Fromme Gasper Graham (Boston) Graham (St Louis) Gray Groom Hallman Hannifan Hartsel Hinchman (Toledo) Hoblitzell Hofman Hoffman (Providence) Hulswitt Jackson Kelley Kisinger Kleinow (catching-NY) Knight (bat) Krause (portrait) Kruger Lattimore Lavender Livingstone Lord Lundgren (Kansas City) Maddox Mattern McAleese McCormick McLean Miller (Pittsburg) Milligan Myers (fielding) Nattress Oakes Oberlin Pfeister (seated) Phillippe Purtell Puttman Quillen Rhoades (arm extended) Rhodes Rudolph Schlafly Scott Shannon Sharpe Shaw (Providence) Smith (Buffalo) F. Smith (Chicago) Stanage Stephens Sweeney (Boston) Jesse Tannehill Taylor Thomas Titus White (Buffalo) Willett Wilson Wright Zimmerman Six Super-Prints ![]() ![]() Chance (yellow portrait) Chase (blue portrait) Chase (dark cap) Cobb (red portrait) Evers (Chicago-yellow sky) Mathewson (dark cap) 350/460 series................56 subjects Ames (hands over head) Baker Bender (no trees) Berger Bradley (bat) M. Brown (Chicago) Burch (fielding) Cobb (bat off shoulder) Conroy (bat) Crawford (bat) George Davis (Chicago) Donlin (bat) Doolan (bat) Dougherty (arm in air) Downey (bat) Larry Doyle (bat) Elberfeld (Washington-fielding) Griffith (bat) Jennings (one hand) Jennings (two hands) Johnson (pitching) Jordan (bat) Joss (pitching) Konetchy (glove low) Lajoie (bat) Lake, St. Louis (no ball) Leach (cap) Leifeld (bat) Magee (bat) Manning (pitching) McIntyre (Brooklyn & Chicago) McQuillan (bat) Mullin (bat) Murphy (bat) Nichols (bat) O'Leary (hands on knees) Overall (yellow sky) Pelty (vertical) Pfeister (throwing) Reulbach (no glove) Rucker (throwing) Seymour (throwing) Snodgrass (catching) Stahl (glove) Steinfeldt (bat) Street (catching) Jeff Sweeney Tinker (bat off shoulder) Wagner (bat on right) Doc White (Chicago-pitching) Wilhelm (bat) Willetts Willis (throwing) Willis (bat) Wiltse (pitching) CYoung (glove) ![]() ![]() 460-only Series................37 subjects (COMPLETE) Abbaticchio (blue sleeves) Ball (Cleveland) Bell (follow thru) Bergen (catching) Bescher (hands over head) Bridwell (portrait-cap) Camnitz (hands over head) Camnitz (arm at side) Chance (bat) Crandall (portrait-cap) Devore Duffy Larry Doyle (portrait) Ford Frill Gandil Geyer Herzog (Boston) Howell (hand on waist) Hummel Lake, St. Louis (ball) McGraw (portrait-cap) McGraw (glove at hip) Meyers (portrait) Murray (portrait) Needham Oldring (batting) Overall (blue sky) Payne Pfeffer Schulte (back view) Sheckard (glove) Smith (Brooklyn) Stovall (bat) Tannehill (Chicago) Tinker (bat on shoulder) Wheat This survey is a work in progress....any new EPDG inputs from you guys are greatly appreciated. Thanx TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 02-14-2020 at 01:22 PM. Reason: Updated list. |
#17
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Hi Kin,
Thanks for the nice words. As Ted says there are just the three brand/factory combos for southern leaguers. There is a footnote, however. A handful of southern leaguer cards having the Old Mill Southern back were printed in brown ink. These cards are all hand-cut i.e. scrap. Moreover, a couple of these Brown Old Mill Southerns (Greminger comes to mind) weirdly have a red Factory 649 overstrike stamp on them. If you search the Net54 archives you will find an image of the "freak" Greminger Brown Old Mill Southern Factory 649 Overstrike card somewhere. Scot Here's a link: http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=147870 Last edited by sreader3; 07-31-2017 at 07:21 PM. |
#18
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* * * * * * * * * * * * * * T206 Reference, Theory's, Surveys, etc. * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() 350/460 series subjects In a conversation with David Hall at the National talking T206's, one topic was regarding the recent find of the 350/460 cards with SWEET CAPORAL 460 Factory #30 backs. These cards were never issued in cigarette packs at Factory #30 (NYC). Instead, American Lithographic overprinted them with the Factory #42 stamp and shipped them to Factory #42 (Durham, NC). ![]() It's my understanding that these cards in David's set were originally on a sheet. Unfortunately, the owner of this sheet hand-cut them. Anyhow, I was curious and asked David to email me a list of them. And, here is David's list...... 28 Hand-Cut (Not Issued) Sweet Caporal 350-460 Factory 30 cards Berger, Heinie Bradley, Bill (With Bat) Burch, Al (Fielding) Cobb, Ty (Bat Off Shoulder) Conroy, Wid (With Bat) Crawford, Sam (With Bat) Jennings, Hughie (One Hand Showing) Jennings, Hughie (Two Hands Showing) Jordan, Tim (Batting) Lajoie, Nap (With Bat) Lake, Joe (St. Louis - No Ball) Leach, Tommy (Bending Over) Leifield, Lefty (Batting) Manning, Rube (Pitching) McQuillan, George (With Bat) Mullin, George (With Bat) Overall, Orval (Hand At Face Level) Pelty, Barney (Vertical) Pfeister, Jake (Throwing) Smith, Frank (Chicago & Boston) Steinfeldt, Harry (With Bat) Tinker, Joe (Bat Off Shoulder) Wagner, Heinie (Bat On Right Shoulder) White, Doc (Pitching) Very, very interesting, in that this sheet comprising of these 28 cards coincides exactly with my theory regarding the 28 subjects which I refer to as "Group B" (350/460 series). Group B (350/460 series) ![]() ![]() TED Z . |
#19
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Ted, I believe the Lajoie (batting) was not included in the recent find
of the hand cut cards. Patrick |
#20
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Hi Pat
You may be right. But, Lajoie is on the list David sent me. So, I'll call him about this. TED Z . |
#21
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David Hall has all 28 subjects on the list (in Post #181) with SWEET CAP 350-460 Factory #30 backs (which of course includes Lajoie). Perhaps, Lajoie was not in the original find; and, he acquired it from another source. TED Z . |
#22
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You mention a Group B in Post 181, are these the only 28 with this back or are there others, in another group. Thanks in advance for your answer.
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#23
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Hi The 350/460 series comprises of 63 subjects. Towards the end of the T206 production (circa..early 1911), American Lithographic divided these cards into the 2 print groups (which I've designated as Group A and Group B)...... Group A . ![]() ![]() ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Group B ![]() ![]() All 63 of these cards were printed with the SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. But, they were NEVER issued to Factory #30 in New York to be inserted into cigarette packs. Instead, they were stamped with Factory #42 overprints and shipped to the Liggett & Myers plant in Durham, NC. This change was done by ATC in anticipation of their divestiture in 1911. Apparently, a recent find of a sheet (or several sheets) containing these 28 subjects (Group B) was discovered and (unfortunately) it was cut into individual cards. Some years ago, a "scrap" sheet containing the 35 subjects in Group A was discovered with SWEET CAP, Factory #30 backs. Unfortunately, it was cut into individual cards. This "proof" card of Johnson is an example of the 35 cards that were on the Group A sheet...... ![]() ![]() Also, check-out Posts #4, 5, and 8 in this thread for more info regarding the 350/460 series cards. TED Z . Last edited by tedzan; 11-25-2017 at 07:44 PM. Reason: Correct typo. |
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