Heritage Results

[Yoda]

I wonder, for example, at PSA how many graders have to examine and concur before a gem mint 10 grade is awarded. Given the final auction price on the Rose RC, I certainly hope Joe Orlando gives final approval for a gem mint grade on a high value card, if he doesn't already.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I wonder, for example, at PSA how many graders have to examine and concur before a gem mint 10 grade is awarded.

That's exactly the point - that there is this much money being committed without that minimum level of transparency is shocking to me. I would bet that transparency of the process would actually diminish the value of the product being sold -- why else would they hide it?

[Snapolit1]

In any kind of "scientific" endeavor, consistency across graders would be considered de riguer. For example, entire forensic science have gone kaput when people have devised studies to blind a decent sample of reviewers to see what kind of consistency exists. All of a sudden one guys grade 1 is another guys 3 and another gal's 5.

[T206Collector]

Third-party graders are literally and allegorically the "men behind the curtain." There is intent in the process being shielded from the customer -- the mystery of the grade is part of the value; and a hidden process is not as susceptible to genuine scrutiny.

If you could watch your card being "graded" you might find yourself arguing with the grader, and trying to influence the outcome. But, that you cannot engage in such a conversation with the grader doesn't mean nobody can.

[Beastmode]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

That's exactly the point - that there is this much money being committed without that minimum level of transparency is shocking to me. I would bet that transparency of the process would actually diminish the value of the product being sold -- why else would they hide it?

Transparency of the grading process, or the subjectivity of such, is not the elephant in the room. How they authenticate older cards is.

What techniques and tools is PSA using to stay one step ahead of the counterfeiters? This process needs to be transparent, because it will lend credibility to the PSA brand.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Beastmode

Transparency of the grading process, or the subjectivity of such, is not the elephant in the room. How they authenticate older cards is.

What techniques and tools is PSA using to stay one step ahead of the counterfeiters? This process needs to be transparent, because it will lend credibility to the PSA brand.

I am as big a PSA hater as the next guy but I 100% disagree with the above statement.

All adding transparency to how they authenticate cards will do is make the card doctors/counterfeiters better. It would let them know what they could and couldn't get away with.

[Exhibitman]

When prices hit that sort of level for a card that is easily found in beautiful condition, it doesn't seem reasonable. And what happens when the handful of guys who can afford to spend $717,000 on a card get tired of comparing pee-pees with baseball cards as the ruler?

Does anyone really think that a 1963 Rose is a good investment at $717,000? If so, I'd love to hear your rationale.

[pokerplyr80]

Personally I think that Rose at 700k is a great investment. I can't afford it, but it's the only one ever to receive that grade. There are plenty of collectors out there with a lot of money to spend. Rare cars and paintings have sold for 10s of millions before and continue to rise in value. Books, comics, coins, guns, pretty much anything that is collected big premiums are paid for examples that have survived in perfect condition.

For a guy who spends 50 mil on a rare vintage Ferrari, or 100 mil for a Van Gogh, what's 1 or 2 mil for the only perfect Rose, Ryan, Mantle, etc RC?

[SAllen2556]

Originally Posted by pokerplyr80

For a guy who spends 50 mil on a rare vintage Ferrari, or 100 mil for a Van Gogh, what's 1 or 2 mil for the only perfect Rose, Ryan, Mantle, etc RC?

You're really comparing a piece of cardboard graded by a (censored) to a Ferrari?
It's a crazy world we live in. I would love to meet one of these people and try to understand the thought process of 700k for a cheap piece of cardboard with a crappy photo on it.

At the peak of tulip mania, in March 1637, some single tulip bulbs sold for more than 10 times the annual income of a skilled craftsman. Now it's Rose mania.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Yoda

I wonder, for example, at PSA how many graders have to examine and concur before a gem mint 10 grade is awarded. Given the final auction price on the Rose RC, I certainly hope Joe Orlando gives final approval for a gem mint grade on a high value card, if he doesn't already.

I doubt very seriously Joe Orlando looks at a single card. When CGC used to be booming, I knew without uncertainty that Steve Borock looked at every single "worthwhile" comic that came thru CGC. I don't think Joe Oralndo looks at anything. I see him more as a figurehead.

[glchen]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

I doubt very seriously Joe Orlando looks at a single card. When CGC used to be booming, I knew without uncertainty that Steve Borock looked at every single "worthwhile" comic that came thru CGC. I don't think Joe Oralndo looks at anything. I see him more as a figurehead.

I obviously have no idea what actually happens at grading companies like PSA, etc. However, I would think for six figure cards, somebody high up, maybe even Joe Orlando, looks at the card. Obviously someone like Joe is probably not a grading expert, and he has to trust his grading team. However, PSA also has to back that card and grade. If there is some obvious flaw like a crease that is somehow missed by the graders on a PSA 10, and that card is resold after grading, the new owners can come to PSA for compensation on a mis-grade. This probably wouldn't matter for most cards, but for really expensive cards, that's a lot of liability for TPG's that perhaps someone like Joe may want to take a peek at the card before it goes out.

I agree with most that the minute differences between a PSA 9 and 10 make the prices for a 10 seem absurd. I don't collect 10's, and I think the only 10 in my collection is a card from the 1980s that I purchased in a 10 for twenty bucks because it was one of my favorite cards from that era. (and that card is never going to rise in value.) However, there are some people with a lot of money who all they buy are the best of the best. I think I read in some article from Heritage's magazine Intelligent Collector that Ken Kendrick has stated he only collects the absolute best cards. So be it. That doesn't mean there isn't a legitimate market for cards in that stratosphere. There are some really rich people that buy art just because some art critic or dealer say that this is a masterpiece, and is worth $$$$. However, to us, that art looks like something my five year old could draw. However, these folks still shell out the dollars, and ask where they can buy more of those. When prices for cards hit six figures, it's so out of my means, it's just rich people buying things rich people buy to me, and that's all there is to it, with reasonable value rarely part of the equation.