PWCC Auction Yet Again

[Yoda]

I know there have been multiple posts of late dissecting the avalanche of high quality PWCC consignments auctioned on Ebay. I just finished reviewing their latest offerings, and it took me all morning. The number of T206's and E90-1's is staggering. I won't dwell on what has been well covered here except to say I believe that the Ebay dynamic for auctions in our little world has been fundamentally changed. PWCC is now dominant player by far and they have provided a true surge in the amount of cardboard on Ebay auction offer. I am sure the other auction houses have noticed and see them as real competition. I say it is a great thing and I wish them well.

[Stonepony]

I agree, the more legitimate competition the better.

[Snapolit1]

I'd go so far as to saythat no AH cranks out the quantity of truly rare material that they do.

[Orioles1954]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd go so far as to saythat no AH cranks out the quantity of truly rare material that they do.

Oxymoron?

[4815162342]

Originally Posted by Orioles1954

Oxymoron?

Exactly what I was thinking.

[Bretsky]

I used PWCC recently and was very happy with the process of selling. Also like the fact that the fees are quite a bit less than an auction house. Payment took a little while but overall very positive experience for the little guy selling a high end card.

[Snapolit1]

I remain convinced that people think their prices run very high only because they don't truly factor in the 18 or 20% vig charged by traditional AFs. Yes, they know it exists but I think somehow it doesn't honestly get factored in.

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

I'd go so far as to saythat no AH cranks out the quantity of truly rare material that they do.

And I'm not 100% convinced that is a good thing. With them being the premiere players with no competition, they can charge whatever with consignment fees and still get the cards. Much in the way Ebay can make sellers fees whatever they want and the sellers won't go anywhere.

[rdwyer]

What is the eBay user name for PWCC?

NEVERMIND. I FOUND IT.

[Stonepony]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

And I'm not 100% convinced that is a good thing. With them being the premiere players with no competition, they can charge whatever with consignment fees and still get the cards. Much in the way Ebay can make sellers fees whatever they want and the sellers won't go anywhere.

What makes you think sellers won't go anywhere? They'll migrate to wherever they get the most bang for there buck. Right now, with their lower fees, PWCC is a hot consignment. That could change...

[CMIZ5290]

I'm glad someone finally started a thread about PWCC, maybe someone will do the same pertaining Probstein.....

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by CMIZ5290

I'm glad someone finally started a thread about PWCC, maybe someone will do the same pertaining Probstein.....

LOL....Probstein is slowly slipping back....Maybe the lack of a back scan is finally catching up?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

LOL....Probstein is slowly slipping back....Maybe the lack of a back scan is finally catching up?

the lack of a back scan is a big issue for me when bidding on their auctions....to me thats pretty lazy..

[bxb]

First class operation, bypasses all the hassle that eBay has become for sellers, especially for larger volume stuff.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by bxb

First class operation, bypasses all the hassle that eBay has become for sellers, especially for larger volume stuff.

They also spend more on advertising than any other ebay auctioneer I am aware of in our categories. And they are far and away the largest advertiser on this board. They certainly have name recognition and Brent and team have done a fine job growing the brand.

[mark evans]

To me it is refreshing to find a large eBay seller that actually engages in auctions rather than BINs.

[glynparson]

It's easy to start material low and let it fly when it is consigned. Much bigger gamble when it's actually product you have money invested in. I would only auction hot high grade material otherwise I always go with a buy it now. Auctions are a good way to lose money on other stuff.

[Snapolit1]

To me it is refreshing to find a large eBay seller that actually engages in auctions rather than BINs.

Yes, and he doesn't start them at sky high prices. Trust your buying audience. Start a $1000 card at $1. Love these guys who start a $1000 card at $975. Not really how to run an auction.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

To me it is refreshing to find a large eBay seller that actually engages in auctions rather than BINs.

Yes, and he doesn't start them at sky high prices. Trust your buying audience. Start a $1000 card at $1. Love these guys who start a $1000 card at $975. Not really how to run an auction.

well if you are a a consignor and the card sells for $800 and its a $1000 card those people probably wished they started it at $975 plus less chance of shilling if it starts at $975. Buyers love bargains but Sellers of course dont want to give away stuff.

The more cards that start at 99 cents though will drive BIN's of the same card to start lowering the price of that card if they want to sell it anytime soon

[bobbyw8469]

The more cards that start at 99 cents though will drive BIN's of the same card to start lowering the price of that card if they want to sell it anytime soon

...as long as that .99 cent card sells decently. When that .99 cent card sells for peanuts is when you see the .99 cent auction disappear for similar cards. I will NEVER sell a Non-Sports card for .99 cent auction ever again! (unless I got it for free).

[Snapolit1]

If the card sells for peanuts it is worth peanuts. If it sells for $1000, it is currently worth $1000.
When PWCC sells me a beautiful PSA 6 card for less than what some jokers are selling dog eared PSA As for, maybe it's the BIN camp that is messed up and not PWCC.

[mechanicalman]

Isn't a "$1000 card" that sells for $800 in a well publicized auction, in fact, an $800 card?

Edited to add: Didn't see Steve's post before I posted. You made my point better than I did.

[Touch'EmAll]

That good old buy low sell high theory strikes again.

Why does PWCC roll out so many high quality auctions, like not just 1 or 2 Aaron's PSA 8 but 12 or 13? Because people perceive the selling prices now to be to good to be true - aka sell high. And because people are sending in a lot of Aaron's PSA 8 to begin with. And people are sending them in for sale because there are quite a few out there to sell in the first place.

Compare the sheer number of 1950's & 1960's being offered with the number of true pre-war high quality cards being offered.

Our nice pre war stuff has got to catch up sooner or later, yes? No?

[T205 GB]

I do believe that certain consigners without ethics will shill their cards. Some other consigners will let it go and take what they get just like any other AH. It seems most people from the 54 group have morals and ethics and do frown upon shilling and any other fraudulent activities.

I guess my question is:

If PWCC sells a cards for an inflated value due to shilling or whatever and you consign and let your card sell and it sells for close to or the same are you not happy with that? You let it run a true course and reaped a better pay out. Do you feel that you should give back money because of it? I bet you watch the auctions closer and wait for the right time to consign and reap the rewards from it.

I may not buy cards from them but the prices they bring on a normal basis would not deter me from consigning either.

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by mechanicalman

Isn't a "$1000 card" that sells for $800 in a well publicized auction, in fact, an $800 card?

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

+1. Beautifully stated. If multiple people think it's worth something, then that gets you your true value. If the runner up thinks it's worth squat, is it REALLY worth squat? I have had people try to get my items via Ebay's messaging system (when I have multiples of the same item, for example, unopened wax packs) for the "peanuts" price, after the auction has ended. I explain to them my disappointment with the low price, and then proceed to sell the item for "real" value, in the case 3-4 times the value of the peanuts price. Might take longer than a 7 day auction, but doesn't take years! Obviously that is on items with a small market window. That won't work on a 1965 Joe Namath rookie card! Obviously a .99 cent auction will yield the best results, no matter WHO is selling that card! LOL! Then again, PWCC might get more than me....who knows!

[glynparson]

+1

[nat]

A general point, not specific to eBay sales:

The price that you paid for something shouldn't have anything to do with what you're willing to sell it for. The money that you paid is gone, it's a sunk cost. The question is really: will you be able to sell this for more money in the future?* And if the answer is "no", it makes sense to sell it now. Sometimes selling for a loss is a good idea.


*Actually, you should also take into account the cost of maintaining an inventory, the time-value of money (if you sell it now you can put the money you get into the market, or buy t-bills, or whatever), and, of course, how much you need the money now.

[mark evans]

I'll confess to being a buyer/collector who may find it difficult to put myself in a seller's shoes. My complaint is not with BINs per se, but with the fact that they are almost invariably set significantly above VCP values.

Let me offer a suggestion: how about auctions with low starting bids and reserves set in the general vicinity (+5%?) of VCP values? This should increase the likelihood of sales while at the same time allowing sellers to take advantage of bidding wars in appropriate cases.

[Snapolit1]

Maybe an economist would disagree, but I think you need to look at more than one motivated buyer to determine the true value of something. If my house is worth $500,000, but some guy comes and offers me $1,000,000 for the house, maybe because his father grew up in the house and it's his life long dream to own it again, that doesn't make the market value $1,000,000, its a half million dollar house that some guy overpaid for.

[edhans]

Another emphatic plus one to Rhett's comments. I've been trying to make this point to customers and auction houses for years. The market is created by arms length transactions between ONE buyer and ONE seller. This is especially true for rare, but thinly traded issues.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Im not sure where you can get set breaks which are the cheapest ways to get card in 99 cent auctions so regularly anywhere else

1954 Topps PSA 8s theres about 200 cards there. I am not sure I have seen any major auction house sell card by card PSA 8 or higher from 1954 to current.

1952 and 1953 yes. But not 1954 at least for years.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mark evans

I'll confess to being a buyer/collector who may find it difficult to put myself in a seller's shoes. My complaint is not with BINs per se, but with the fact that they are almost invariably set significantly above VCP values.

Let me offer a suggestion: how about auctions with low starting bids and reserves set in the general vicinity (+5%?) of VCP values? This should increase the likelihood of sales while at the same time allowing sellers to take advantage of bidding wars in appropriate cases.

Ebay charges an exorbitant amount to set a reserve price.
If you set reserves on multiple items you would wind up losing money.

[mark evans]

Thanks, Richard. I was unaware of that fact which obviously complicates my suggestion.

Mark

[Exhibitman]

I start at my minimum acceptable price and take it from there. I don't sell as many items but I make more money in the end. I tried the $0.99 and let it rip approach and I would literally have been better off selling the items at my minimums and throwing out the unsold items, that's how badly it went.

[mechanicalman]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

I have never understood why people today feel only an auction can determine what the true value of a card or commodity is.

The short answer is NO, at auction there needs to be TWO people that feel the card is worth a certain amount for the item to get to that level. If only one person bids to the current level and there is not a second party involved they may in fact be getting a major deal on the card considering that same person may have been willing to spend a significant amount more to aquire the same item in a retail or direct sale setting.

Retail sales haven't suddenly become meaningless. In reality all it takes is ONE PERSON to determine a market value as long as money is exchanging hands. Sellers have sold countless things over the years for a fair amount over "auction value" to someone that really wants an item that is unavailable elsewhere, especially in a thinly traded set. These sales are every bit as legitimate as any auction price.

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

Rhett:
With all due respect, I actually agree with your well-articulated point, but I believe you've actually supported my argument, not refuted it. My general point is that an auction (that is well publicized and therefore attracts rational prospective buyers) is A good barometer of market value but certainly not THE only way to determine value. To use my quote as a springboard to your point represents a bit of non-sequitur.

Again, I agree with you that a market price can be determined by two parties alone, a rational seller and a rational buyer (i.e. someone not selling or buying under duress or with emotion as in Steve's example.) It happens in real estate all the time. If one buyer buys my house (with no other bids) for $500K, then that is the market value of that house in the immediate term (obviously economic conditions can change that over time.) And so, if we both agree that at least one buyer and one seller are necessary and sufficient to agree to a price which becomes market value, then the presence of additional buyers (i.e. in an auction) would naturally be included in that premise.

Certainly not trying to create a debate on a beautiful day; just seeking to clarify my point as I don't think we disagree on much here. Full disclosure: I am largely a collector, but I consigned some cards to PWCC a while back and got CRUSHED. My only conclusion, however, was that the market price for my cards was lower than when I bought them. Just bad timing on my part.

[glynparson]

Includes what seller will sell item for not just what buyers will pay.
http://www.businessdictionary.com/de...ket-value.html

[clydepepper]

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

Probstein and Ebay are both on my SH?T list.

[1952boyntoncollector]

Always a ton of these every auction including this one.

[Scocs]

To speak to Rhett's point: the problem is that eBay and auction houses are, by nature, very public spectacles. How do you create and maintain market value when private sales are, by their very nature, private? Especially on ultra rare cards?

[1952boyntoncollector]

Originally Posted by Scocs

To speak to Rhett's point: the problem is that eBay and auction houses are, by nature, very public spectacles. How do you create and maintain market value when private sales are, by their very nature, private? Especially on ultra rare cards?

Im sure this happens in the Art and Coin world as well...

[bobbyw8469]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

Probstein and Ebay are both on my SH?T list.

LOL...which is ironic because PWCC sells on Ebay! So is Ebay REALLY on your sh*t list??

[VintageJay]

Any final price guesses on the Pete Rose PSA 9 rookie? Insane!

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

LOL...which is ironic because PWCC sells on Ebay! So is Ebay REALLY on your sh*t list??

Burn

[ksabet]

Originally Posted by rhettyeakley

ON a different topic: I always find it funny when people who are almost exclusively buyers just don't understand why sellers don't just start things low and let it fly, as if the seller must have gotten the item for free and there is no risk involved. It sure is easy to risk or spend other peoples money, isn't it!

I would say those sellers you refer to aren't very good at their job. There is this thing called math that I use to calculate what price I can buy a card at and then sell it for a profit.

I completely ignore past sales of BIN and focus on auction prices. This way when I buy cards I only buy at prices that I can "let it fly" and feel comfortable.

I will never be confused for Dean's Cards. I Buy low...flip fast...repeat.

Worked for me so far.

[I am not a full time dealer and don't earn a living doing this}

[FourStrikes]

Originally Posted by clydepepper

PWCC has always been good to me (-Pepe Escquala quote?)

CHICO Escuela. "...baseball has been berry, berry good to me..."

NOT being a d!ck - posted only for accuracy (BTW, it's a great quote!)

[rhettyeakley]

Originally Posted by ksabet

I would say those sellers you refer to aren't very good at their job. There is this thing called math that I use to calculate what price I can buy a card at and then sell it for a profit.

I completely ignore past sales of BIN and focus on auction prices. This way when I buy cards I only buy at prices that I can "let it fly" and feel comfortable.

I will never be confused for Dean's Cards. I Buy low...flip fast...repeat.

Worked for me so far.

[I am not a full time dealer and don't earn a living doing this}

You admit you aren't a dealer and don't make a living selling cards but call people that don't want to lose money on an investment they have made "bad at their job"? You are right we need more dealers in this hobby that offer people pennies on the dollar for their quality items because that makes them "good at their job", because hey, they never lose money right!?!

Honestly, it isn't that hard to wait for a screaming deal that may show up from time to time and then sell for a pretty good profit. We have all done this. Making these types of deals in bulk and consistently turning a profit is very difficult and I know I don't envy people that try to make a living doing so.

[T205 GB]

I have to say I consigned a few cards. Figured with the strong prices they bring it was a wise choice. Needless to say I lost my ass. Kinda f'ed up if you ask me. Well at least I have a clear conscience

[ullmandds]

Originally Posted by T205 GB

I have to say I consigned a few cards. Figured with the strong prices they bring it was a wise choice. Needless to say I lost my ass. Kinda f'ed up if you ask me. Well at least I have a clear conscience

sorry to hear this...buy obviously you're not in the "in" crowd!!!!!

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

Burn

Not at all burned...even if that was his intent.

My sh*t list is very compartmentalized.

PWCC filters good quality product and service on a platform that has done me wrong. I cannot blame PWCC for the inequities of EBAY.