Your top 3 non HOFers

[FourStrikes]

not the first time (and probably not the last) but...I stand corrected.

(guessing I was stretching to find three otherwise deserving pitchers,
sans doing any actual research...)

a brain fart - thanks Jason!

[jason.1969]

There was a pitcher named Blyleven.
He made the Hall in '11.
But believing him slighted
Got posters excited
Till they learned he was in, oh Good Heaven!

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[jason.1969]

Check out Julio Franco courtesy of a new Baseball Digest graphic.

[knoxcat1983]

Al Oliver, Kaat, Raines

[KingFisk]

Dwight Evans, anyone?

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[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Dwight Evans, anyone?

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I like him as a very good player. I wouldn't put him in my Top 3 though, and I probably wouldn't consider him an HOFer. (I might not even put him in my Top 3 among Red Sox outfielders of the 1970s!) That said, I would take him over many current HOFers.

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[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

I like him as a very good player. I wouldn't put him in my Top 3 though, and I probably wouldn't consider him an HOFer. (I might not even put him in my Top 3 among Red Sox outfielders of the 1970s!) That said, I would take him over many current HOFers.

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He's a guy that got better as he got older. Developed into a great hitter with plus defense. I haven't looked in awhile but I think his numbers hold up and make him a borderline candidate. Too bad he never got serious consideration, probably due to falling short in the counting stats, and never being considered one of the best players in the game at any given time.

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[DBesse27]

Dewey's offensive numbers compare very favorably to Rice's, plus he was an A+ defender.

[the 'stache]

When I compared the careers of Jim Rice, and Dwight Evans, let's just say my eyebrow raised.

Both played in the outfield for the Red Sox, Evans in right, Rice in left. Both played together for almost the entirety of their careers. Evans came up in '72, Rice in '74. Evans played in Boston until 1991, when he was a free agent picked up by Baltimore. He played 19 years at Fenway, putting up 2,505 games as a member of the Red Sox. Rice retired after the 1989 season. That's sixteen years out there together. Every opening day of Jim Rice's career, Evans was there, too.

I get that Rice had some massive seasons early on in his career. So did Freddy Lynn, who was in center '74 to '80. But between '77 and '79, Rice was ridiculous with the bat; his average output for those three years: 114 runs, 207 hits, 31 doubles, 12 triples, 41 home runs, 128 RBI, a .320 AVG, and a slash line of .376/.596/.972. Those are real averages, not adjusted to 162 games. He only missed six games those three seasons. He led the league in total bases all three seasons. But that was really his peak. He had some othre really good seasons, and one other great season (1983; .305 AVG, 39 HR, 126 RBI, leading in the last two metrics. His 344 total bases led the league, too, and he slashed .361/.550/.911). In 1984, he hit only .280, but hit 28 home runs, and drove in 122. In 1986, he hit .324, driving in 110, but only hit 20 home runs.

But Rice was a below average defender, and by WAR, his career total of 47.4 just doesn't add up.

Now, Evans didn't have the huge seasons early in his career. From 1972 to 1980, his 162 game averages were not at all impressive: .262 AVG, 20 home runs, 68 RBI, and a .792 OPS. But Evans is the rare player who truly came into his own after age 30. 1981 was his breakout offensive season; he led the American League with 22 home runs, hit .296, and 85 walks, 215 total bases and a .937 OPS all led the league. For the first time, he received MVP votes, finishing third in the league. From 1981 to 1989, his 162 game averages spiked considerably; he hit .281, averaging 109 runs scored, 30 home runs, 104 RBI, and 106 walks versus 114 strikeouts. And, unlike Rice, he was a highly regarded defender. Evans won a total of eight Gold Gloves in his career. And, his career WAR of 66.9 is 19.5 higher than Rice's career total.

So, why is Evans not in, and Rice is? I think, when it comes to baseball, voters rely heavily on reputation when handing out awards. Rice became one of the most feared hitters in the league early in his career. Evans was consistent, but not spectacular.

Evans played four years longer than Rice. But, because of Evans' walk rate, he had only 771 more at bats than Rice. So, there really isn't a great discrepancy in their home run frequency. Rice averaged a home run every 21.5 at bats (382 home runs in 8,225 at bats). Evans averaged a home run every 23.4 at bats (385 home runs in 8,996 at bats). And their career OPS + metric is nearly identical; 127 for Evans, 128 for Rice. And though Rice had a much higher career batting average (.298 vs .272 for Evans), he had a lower OBP. Rice walked 670 times in his career, and Evans walked 1,391 times. Rice's OBP of .352 pales in comparison to Evans' .370.

When we consider that these two players had equal power for their career, yet Evans got on base more, and was a vastly better fielder, it seems to me as if the Hall elected the wrong Red Sox outfielder. It took Rice fifteen years to get in. Evans, however, appeared on only three ballots. He fell off the ballot after getting only 3.6% of the vote in 1999.

Originally Posted by KingFisk

Dwight Evans, anyone?

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[KingFisk]

Originally Posted by the 'stache

When I compared the careers of Jim Rice, and Dwight Evans, let's just say my eyebrow raised.

When we consider that these two players had equal power for their career, yet Evans got on base more, and was a vastly better fielder, it seems to me as if the Hall elected the wrong Red Sox outfielder. It took Rice fifteen years to get in. Evans, however, appeared on only three ballots. He fell off the ballot after getting only 3.6% of the vote in 1999.

This was a terrific analysis. Evans is one of a growing number of guys who had excellent careers and merit Hall talk but vanish from the ballot before dialogue can even happen.. Lofton and Edmonds come to mind as two recent examples.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Rice had an MVP and a few years where he was a dominant slugger. Evans was less spectacular, more consistent at putting up very good but not great numbers. I think that made the difference.

[DBesse27]

I'm in the camp that says Evans is at least as deserving as Rice, if not more so. If you say Evans is close but doesn't belong, that's fine, but then neither does Rice.

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by KingFisk

This was a terrific analysis. Evans is one of a growing number of guys who had excellent careers and merit Hall talk but vanish from the ballot before dialogue can even happen.. Lofton and Edmonds come to mind as two recent examples.

Edmonds was linked to juicing (and his highest WAR total coming at age 34 doesn't help his case very much, that looks suspicious)

Lofton..... IDK why he was ignored.He was the premium lead off man of his era and a fine fielder

[steve B]

Glad to see you take a look at those two!

There's a few things that fall into the "can't put numbers to it" category, and a few personal observations from going to a lot of games from 77- 82 (When you could walk up to the ticket window and buy what are now upper box seats as grandstand seats for a few dollars)

First the observations on each, if you saw them play then it'll sound familiar.
Rices HRs were usually amazing, ones I'd figure as almost demoralizing to the other team. I've never seen a ball get out of the park so fast, and many were well over the net in left. One he hit in I think 75 was supposedly one of only 3-4 to leave the park completely to the right of the flagpole. And the guys who hit the others was some pretty good company (I think...Mantle, Foxx, and one other. ) On the downside, he was treated somewhat poorly by the press, and didn't help himself there at all. Later in his career, there was something written about him needing glasses. He eventually got them, but picked a pretty awful style. And then took a lot of kidding about it to the point he stopped wearing them. His performance with glasses was much better, no big surprise.
He did lead the league 4 straight years in grounding into double plays and was often in the top 10, one knock against him that is accurate.
He wasn't really that bad of a fielder. 11 years in the top 10 for LF assists, and led twice in LF doubleplays and once in Fielding pct. for LF Of course like any left fielder in Fenway the assists and doubleplays are somewhat easier. And no matter how good you come across in stats, when it goes wrong .......Yikes.
The year he retired was in a stretch where the "old" players were being treated very poorly by the management. Not even an opportunity to retire gracefully, just an announcement that they weren't being invited to spring training. And the date of the "special day" to Honor them, always a late season game against a poor gate draw. Rice basically checked out after that, his last game was August 3rd. The Sox currently say "formally retired" August 6, while Baseball reference says released Nov 13. Any way you look at it, it was an UGLY split. He didn't come back for Jim Rice day, which was also Bob Stanley day. (Stanley was there, and knifed one last beach ball ) How much his injuries affected him at the time is hard to say. His performance was poor for sure, but his replacement at DH Sam Horn ended up with an identically miserable WAR and displayed no power at all.


Evans got the same poor treatment the next year but opted to become a free agent. Being fairly close to 400HR probably was part of that. Health issues really prevented him from continuing. Usually back spasms, which back then I always thought "really?! Back spasms? Then I got into my late 40's and had a couple.....And totally understood.

He was a really amazing fielder. Right in Fenway is a bit easier than left, but only a bit. And he played it very well. What really set him apart was the arm. The only comparable player I've seen is Ichiro. There's no stat for how often guys hit a single that might stretch to a double and decided not to because of who the fielder was. Which is too bad because he'd probably be among the leaders. Led three times in RF assists, and three times in RF double plays, but that really doesn't tell the whole story.

He was only on the HOF ballot 3 years, getting 5.9% 10.4 % and 3.6 % that last year was the one that made me really question how the HOF elections work. Because there's a reason he only got 3.6 and was off the ballot. Or more accurately, several reasons.
Nolan Ryan 1st year 98.8%
George Brett 1 st year 98.2%
Robin Yount 1st year 77.5%
Carlton Fisk 1st year 66.4%
Plus 5 other eventual HOF ers ahead of him. There simply weren't enough votes to go around to keep a good fielder or even a great fielder on the ballot. I've felt since then that the 5% cutoff should be adjusted when there's a particularly strong group in its first year.


Steve B

Originally Posted by the 'stache

When I compared the careers of Jim Rice, and Dwight Evans, let's just say my eyebrow raised.

Both played in the outfield for the Red Sox, Evans in right, Rice in left. Both played together for almost the entirety of their careers. Evans came up in '72, Rice in '74. Evans played in Boston until 1991, when he was a free agent picked up by Baltimore. He played 19 years at Fenway, putting up 2,505 games as a member of the Red Sox. Rice retired after the 1989 season. That's sixteen years out there together. Every opening day of Jim Rice's career, Evans was there, too.

I get that Rice had some massive seasons early on in his career. So did Freddy Lynn, who was in center '74 to '80. But between '77 and '79, Rice was ridiculous with the bat; his average output for those three years: 114 runs, 207 hits, 31 doubles, 12 triples, 41 home runs, 128 RBI, a .320 AVG, and a slash line of .376/.596/.972. Those are real averages, not adjusted to 162 games. He only missed six games those three seasons. He led the league in total bases all three seasons. But that was really his peak. He had some othre really good seasons, and one other great season (1983; .305 AVG, 39 HR, 126 RBI, leading in the last two metrics. His 344 total bases led the league, too, and he slashed .361/.550/.911). In 1984, he hit only .280, but hit 28 home runs, and drove in 122. In 1986, he hit .324, driving in 110, but only hit 20 home runs.

But Rice was a below average defender, and by WAR, his career total of 47.4 just doesn't add up.

Now, Evans didn't have the huge seasons early in his career. From 1972 to 1980, his 162 game averages were not at all impressive: .262 AVG, 20 home runs, 68 RBI, and a .792 OPS. But Evans is the rare player who truly came into his own after age 30. 1981 was his breakout offensive season; he led the American League with 22 home runs, hit .296, and 85 walks, 215 total bases and a .937 OPS all led the league. For the first time, he received MVP votes, finishing third in the league. From 1981 to 1989, his 162 game averages spiked considerably; he hit .281, averaging 109 runs scored, 30 home runs, 104 RBI, and 106 walks versus 114 strikeouts. And, unlike Rice, he was a highly regarded defender. Evans won a total of eight Gold Gloves in his career. And, his career WAR of 66.9 is 19.5 higher than Rice's career total.

So, why is Evans not in, and Rice is? I think, when it comes to baseball, voters rely heavily on reputation when handing out awards. Rice became one of the most feared hitters in the league early in his career. Evans was consistent, but not spectacular.

Evans played four years longer than Rice. But, because of Evans' walk rate, he had only 771 more at bats than Rice. So, there really isn't a great discrepancy in their home run frequency. Rice averaged a home run every 21.5 at bats (382 home runs in 8,225 at bats). Evans averaged a home run every 23.4 at bats (385 home runs in 8,996 at bats). And their career OPS + metric is nearly identical; 127 for Evans, 128 for Rice. And though Rice had a much higher career batting average (.298 vs .272 for Evans), he had a lower OBP. Rice walked 670 times in his career, and Evans walked 1,391 times. Rice's OBP of .352 pales in comparison to Evans' .370.

When we consider that these two players had equal power for their career, yet Evans got on base more, and was a vastly better fielder, it seems to me as if the Hall elected the wrong Red Sox outfielder. It took Rice fifteen years to get in. Evans, however, appeared on only three ballots. He fell off the ballot after getting only 3.6% of the vote in 1999.

[Peter_Spaeth]

My memories of Rice will first and foremost be grounding into a double play to kill a rally.

[steve B]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

My memories of Rice will first and foremost be grounding into a double play to kill a rally.

He was really good at that. Currently 7th all time, tied with Eddie Murray.

I prefer to remember the homers. The announcers calls not so much since they seldom got enough time. "Here's the pitch, a swing homerun Jim Rice! " Some of them were just that quick.

The rest of the top 7 grounding into doubleplays is a pretty good group.
Cal Ripken, 350
Ivan Rodriguez 337
Hank Aaron 328
Albert Pujols 324 and counting (If I had the time, I'd have a move over hank here comes Albert shirt - Bonus if anyone gets what that refers to -should be easy)
Yaz 323
Dave Winfield 319
Murray and Rice at 315.
Julio Franco 312

And that's all over 300.


Steve B

[bravos4evr]

Originally Posted by steve B

He was only on the HOF ballot 3 years, getting 5.9% 10.4 % and 3.6 % that last year was the one that made me really question how the HOF elections work. Because there's a reason he only got 3.6 and was off the ballot. Or more accurately, several reasons.
Nolan Ryan 1st year 98.8%
George Brett 1 st year 98.2%
Robin Yount 1st year 77.5%
Carlton Fisk 1st year 66.4%
Plus 5 other eventual HOF ers ahead of him. There simply weren't enough votes to go around to keep a good fielder or even a great fielder on the ballot. I've felt since then that the 5% cutoff should be adjusted when there's a particularly strong group in its first year.


Steve B

the writers have been screaming for a "yes/no" ballot for years to avoid the problem of logjams hurting deserving players who can't get votes because the limit on how many can be voted for in any given year. (which is the main reason nobody has been unanimous,a writer will leave off a guy they know is first ballot hoping their vote for a guy like Trammel will help him stay on the ballot another year.)

[Big Six]

Munson
Mattingly
O'Doul


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[JollyElm]

I love this thread, because it is mainly based on actual observations of players we saw in action every day and not so much dependent on ancient career stats numbers.

1. Anyone who grew up in the 70'/80's saw Steve Garvey as a huge star. When any of us New Yorkers thought about facing the Dodgers, Garvey was the man.

2. He got hurt and that's what screwed him, but Don Mattingly was an absolute force for a bunch of years until he had no choice but to hang up his cleats.

3. Thurman Munson was the bare knuckled heart of the Yankees as they regained their place at the summit of the American League.

[TheNightmanCometh]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

No Rose, no steroid dudes, no guys not yet eligible.

Who are your top 3 post war non HOFers? Not meant to be a thread about who SHOULD be in, as I think it's already overstuffed.

The numbers probably won't bear me out, but my picks would be Hodges, Oliva and Garvey.

Fred McGriff
Dale Murphy
Don Mattingly

[Bigdaddy]

Steve Garvey
Don Mattingly
Eric Davis

[MattyC]

Originally Posted by TheNightmanCometh

Dale Murphy
Don Mattingly

Murphy and Mattingly here as well. A half decade of being pretty much the main offensive force in your league does it for me.

When considering a player I ask, "Could we tell the story of baseball in this player's time without mentioning him?"

In the case of Dale Murphy and Don Mattingly, I don't think one could discuss 1980's baseball without mentioning these two studs.

[Beatles Guy]

Alan Trammell
Gil Hodges
Ted Simmons

It's a travesty that Simmons dropped off so quickly. Yes, he was average defensively but the guy could hit. Put him up against any catcher of that era outside of Bench.

[jason.1969]

So many slippery slopes with common sense criteria. This rationale for Ted Simmons (though Fisk fans may differ) would make Concepcion a shoo-in. Probably Bill Freehan too for the 60s.

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[EYECOLLECTVINTAGE]

Thurman Munson, Gil Hodges, Benny Agbayani

[Peter_Spaeth]

https://www.sporcle.com/games/deej/m...me-by-position

[drmondobueno]

Vada Pinson

[jason.1969]

The Maris discussion brings back memories to when 61 HRs seemed like a lot!

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[RayBShotz]

My guys.

Great thread.