pwcc

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

I don't know any of my scanner settings -- but I know which cards I've tweaked to make them look brighter. This isn't rocket science. Brent knows exactly what he's doing.

Congrats on your 3,000th post.

There is no question that Brent knows what he's doing. And there's no question the other AH's do as well. It's a question of what we can do. It could be difficult to force the ones who are image editing to change. Constructive steps need to be taken. Auction houses that don't image edit can put that in their terms and it could be a boon to them. It shows that they have committed to a clean auction.

As for the ones that change their settings, we don't have to like it. But having them disclose it in their terms would still be a major step forward. Until this afternoon, not a single AH had confessed to changing scanner settings. Brent stepped forward and became accountable. That is much better than the mystery game we were playing previously. It doesn't make him a hero, but it is a big step.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Brent stepped forward and became accountable.

Respectfully, I disagree completely. Brent responded with a bullshit lie because he felt pressured to respond. Blaming it on our monitors? Please. For some reason my monitor works fine when viewing Rob Lifson's scans, not so fine when viewing Brent's.

[Republicaninmass]

Silence speaks volumes, I cant see how any real bidder could have more than one retraction. I have never had one!

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Respectfully, I disagree completely. Brent responded with a bullshit lie because he felt pressured to respond. Blaming it on our monitors? Please. For some reason my monitor works fine when viewing Rob Lifson's scans, not so fine when viewing Brent's.

Nevermind Brent, then - what do you plan to do about the problem? As far as I can tell, Jeff, you are long on complaints, as legitimate as they may be, and short on solutions. Whether Brent wins Boy Scout Trooper of the Year is not the issue - the greater issue is, how do we stop AH's from jacking up their scans?

[autograf]

You know.....you can pretty much say anything as long as you preface it 'respectfully' or 'in all due respect'.....

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by cyseymour

Nevermind Brent, then - what do you plan to do about the problem? As far as I can tell, Jeff, you are long on complaints, as legitimate as they may be, and short on solutions. Whether Brent wins Boy Scout Trooper of the Year is not the issue - the greater issue is, how do we stop AH's from jacking up their scans?

How do the victims stop the fraud? Is that what you're asking?

Simple: we can make complaints to law enforcement or we can sue them. That's the only thing that seems to slow the fraud down it seems. Outing them here publicly just causes numerous sheep and others financially aligned with the crooked auction houses to jump up and try to silence those who point out the fraud. You should go look at the threads from 2006 and 2007 and see how many Net 54 stalwarts defended Doug Allen and Bill Mastro from fraud allegations.

[ullmandds]

What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?

Who knows. In Mastro's case it was surely both. But they could see their consigners bidding on their own auctions at times so I wouldn't say they were absolved from that type of fraud.

[Ease]

Originally Posted by ullmandds

What I'd like to know is are these consignment based ebay clearing houses providing the shillers...or are the consigners doing the shilling?

I'm guessing a little of both?

I feel like its gotta be predominately consignors doing the shilling, the big ebay clearing houses just provide the open door/avenue for shilling.

[novakjr]

Originally Posted by Ease

I feel like its gotta be predominately consignors doing the shilling, the big ebay clearing houses just provide the open door/avenue for shilling.

And ebay allows for the deniability on both ends. Because ultimately, ebay allows the bidder information to be hidden, from the buyers, pwcc and the consignors, and leaves everything to speculation.

Essentially, the items are consigned twice. Once to pwcc, and then again to ebay, adding another link to the chain of command, and allowing both parties to either point the finger at the other, or(more than likely in this case) to claim that bids that appear fraudulent, or fluky, are just part of the amateur nature of ebay bidding in general.. We've all seen legitimately indecisive, idiot, flaky bidders before. Not just on ebay, but even in our own b/s/t forums here. But Ebay's setup, hides bidder info(unlike here), and allows those types to ultimately be blamed, even when they aren't involved..

Both consignors and pwcc, are aware of the loopholes that ebay allows them to take advantage of. And that is why they are still on ebay in the first place, instead of running their own auctions... Why keep letting ebay take a cut, when they could just do it themselves? Well, because they wouldn't do as well, and then they'd ultimately be accountable for anything seemingly shady.. The extra money from bid manipulation, far outweighs the fees from ebay.. Don't get me wrong, I don't think pwcc is doing the manipulation, BUT I think they know it's going on, and continue to turn a blind eye to it. Why? Well, because it benefits them..

I truly believe, they used ebay as a launching pad for a legitimate business, BUT there comes a point when you decide it's better off to stay in a system that allows for manipulation, than to move on to one in which you can't, because you'd shorten the paper trail, and ultimately open yourself up for accountability.

[cyseymour]

Originally Posted by calvindog

How do the victims stop the fraud? Is that what you're asking?

Simple: we can make complaints to law enforcement or we can sue them. That's the only thing that seems to slow the fraud down it seems. Outing them here publicly just causes numerous sheep and others financially aligned with the crooked auction houses to jump up and try to silence those who point out the fraud. You should go look at the threads from 2006 and 2007 and see how many Net 54 stalwarts defended Doug Allen and Bill Mastro from fraud allegations.

I don't think that suing them is a workable option. You'd have to prove damages, which could be complicated, and I seriously doubt that many hobbyists want to get involved with a civil suit.

So you are pretty much talking about making complaints to law enforcement. It is not a terrible idea, but personally, I do not want to get involved at that level at this time. I recently (knowingly) bought two cards with jacked up scans, so yes it is annoying. But you and Peter are the lawyers, I am not that comfortable getting mixed up in those types of things, so I will leave it to you guys. Good luck!

And I agree that many folks are getting tired of the endless shill bidding/scan editing threads. Switching the scanner settings or not, I do not believe Brent H to be the scourge of this hobby.