Nobody cares about ebay shill bidding but

[Peter_Spaeth]

First the bid history

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.d...m=380705786534

Then the bidder



Bid History: Details



Bidding Details


Bidder Information
Bidder: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49)
Feedback: 100%Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1965 Topps #350 Mickey Mantle HOF New York Yankees PSA 8 NM-MT CENTERED
Bids on this item: 1

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 34
Items bid on: 12
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 79% Help
Bid retractions: 5
Bid retractions (6 months): 23


But I am sure Rick will clean it all up.

[smtjoy]

LOL also looks to have been bid up to $995 by another "real" bidder-

s***o ( 0 ) New eBay Member (less than 30 days)
30-Day Summary
Total bids: 22
Items bid on: 7
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 100%
Bid retractions: 0
Bid retractions (6 months): 0

[D.P.Johnson]

Forward this information to the winning bidder...

[arexcrooke]

In no way is shill bidding acceptable or should be condoned.
I just wonder how Rick is supposed to:
a-know about everyone that happens
b-stop it
when
c-he is running, per an email I recently had with him, 1 million worth of auctions a month

[bigfanNY]

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

Stop now, you're making too much sense.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

So it's ok to say I am too busy to do my job? The person running the auction benifits by the Auction price as much as the person who consigns the Item. It is up to him to keep the auctions fair.

Jonathan Sterling

Then explain how someone who runs the enormous amount of auctions he does can combat shill bidding?
Ill wait for a while because I'm not sure you nor anyone else can figure out how he can.

[nolemmings]

Agreed, and if he's pulling in that much $$$, he damn sure can afford to pay people to come up with solutions.

[thehoodedcoder]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

In no way is shill bidding acceptable or should be condoned.
I just wonder how Rick is supposed to:
a-know about everyone that happens
b-stop it
when
c-he is running, per an email I recently had with him, 1 million worth of auctions a month

these numbers get sillier and sillier every time they get communicated.

so now he does 12 million dollars a year on ebay?

kevin

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by nolemmings

Agreed, and if he's pulling in that much $$$, he damn sure can afford to pay people to come up with solutions.

Again
How would you begin to combat the issue?
And I would dare say its an issue with any large consignment seller or auction house.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by thehoodedcoder

these numbers get sillier and sillier every time they get communicated.

so now he does 12 million dollars a year on ebay?

kevin

Has 1milliom in sales a month. Gross. Not net.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

Then explain how someone who runs the enormous amount of auctions he does can combat shill bidding?
Ill wait for a while because I'm not sure you nor anyone else can figure out how he can.

I'll tell you one thing he can do. He can block shill bidders when the evidence is pointed out to him. He can also block them as consignors. I guess money trumps that though, right?

Besides, it's not anybody's responsibility to explain to Rick how to stop shill bidding on his auctions. He's the owner, it's his responsibility. And the excuse of time constraints, ignorance or anything else for that matter is not valid.

[CMIZ5290]

Last PSA 8 sold for $1125 by PWCC. We all know how strong his prices bring....Our do we??

[Peter_Spaeth]

5 retractions on the card now.

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,136.00
Bid: Aug-27-13 16:42:18 PDT
Retracted: Aug-27-13 17:05:33 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,221.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:04:21 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:05:55 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,219.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:07:17 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:23:41 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,211.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 16:22:45 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 16:24:08 PDT
Member Id: m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

[arexcrooke]

I agree he can block it when brought to his attention. Hopefully he will, is, and does so in the future.

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

I think it is all of our jobs to help clean up and preserve this hobby of ours.

Please don't take my comments as being accusatory or combative. They are neither. I haven't posted here much because I'm newer to cards. But this topic and the one you and others were discussing earlier last week is very much like a topic that was of enormous importance in comics starting about 8 years ago when such things as trimming, pressing, CPR (crack press and resub) online sellers shenanigans etc came to light. I was on the front lines then and so I have some knowledge of what is appearing to be brought to the front via this board.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

5 retractions on the card now.

Bid retraction and cancellation history

Bidder Action Date of Bid and Retraction
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,136.00
Bid: Aug-27-13 16:42:18 PDT
Retracted: Aug-27-13 17:05:33 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,221.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:04:21 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:05:55 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,219.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 15:07:17 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 15:23:41 PDT
Member Id: n***1( 12Feedback score is 10 to 49) Retracted: US $1,211.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 16:22:45 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 16:24:08 PDT
Member Id: m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

Then someone needs to bring it to Ricks attention.
And eBay as well. Although with eBay Im not sure if they would ban that ID.

[bigfanNY]

No need to wait. You ask consigners to sign an agreement that says if the shill the auction that he will refund the bidders money past the first bid from the consigner and charge them full commission on the auction. Then they will be banned from bidding or consigneing to his future auctions. And yes he is large enough and this is important enough that he or one of his employees should look at each auctions results.
If enough shill bidding could be proved to EBAY they would have no alternative but to ban him from their site. Then everybody loses. But he has to run a fair site if he cant then ultimatly he will lose the ability to run his business on EBAY.
Based on the information posted here I would never consign or bid on any of his auctions and I am not happy saying that because I have things to sell and he gets decent prices, and many times he posts items that I would like to own.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

I find your second statement interesting.
Last week in the card doctor thread you were talking about how to improve the hobby by outing card doctors, shill bidders etc. (which btw I agree with) but yet you, in this thread, put the onus squarely on Rick to do just what you were yelling from the mountain tops about.

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by bigfanNY

No need to wait. You ask consigners to sign an agreement that says if the shill the auction that he will refund the bidders money past the first bid from the consigner and charge them full commission on the auction. Then they will be banned from bidding or consigneing to his future auctions. And yes he is large enough and this is important enough that he or one of his employees should look at each auctions results.
If enough shill bidding could be proved to EBAY they would have no alternative but to ban him from their site. Then everybody loses. But he has to run a fair site if he cant then ultimatly he will lose the ability to run his business on EBAY.
Based on the information posted here I would never consign or bid on any of his auctions and I am not happy saying that because I have things to sell and he gets decent prices, and many times he posts items that I would like to own.

Fair enough points and well explained.
I don't think Rock is involved in the shilling. I do hope it can be addressed.

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

[arexcrooke]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Guy only paid $100 extra, no biggie.

m***m( 2 ) Retracted: US $1,461.00
Bid: Sep-02-13 18:49:15 PDT
Retracted: Sep-02-13 18:50:22 PDT

Sarcasm, correct?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy

The onus is on Rick. It's his business, it's his responsibility to combat shill bidding. When he doesn't, then others have the right to point it out when we see it. Is that really difficult to understand?

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

Sarcasm, correct?

Of course.

[CMIZ5290]

At the risk of arguments, I don't know how in the hell this card can sell for close to $1500. There has got to be some ideas among the many, brilliant minds on this board. What exactly is going on, and why?? Why cant more coarse consequences take place?

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by arexcrooke

Never said it was difficult to understand. Is it difficult for you to understand that just talking about it doesn't do much more than create noise? That if it is to be fixed then steps need to be taken to address it?

I disagree. Talking about it let's others know about Rick's character and they can make up their own mind if they want to do business with him or not.

Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. Arex, what does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,436.00
Sep-02-13 18:13:34 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,411.00
Sep-02-13 18:48:23 PDT

Member Id: m***m( 2 ) US $1,361.00
Sep-02-13 18:46:28 PDT

Member Id: e***7( 1291Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999) US $1,311.00
Sep-02-13 18:45:30 PDT

Member Id: 2***2( 966Feedback score is 500 to 999) US $1,295.95
Sep-02-13 17:32:25 PDT

2 feeback guy ran him up as high as he could go, then retracted his bid at 1461. Nice.

[olrac44]

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

[bigfanNY]

I do not think he is involved either but he runs a business that has the potential to hide problems created by others. First someone who is banned from Ebay can consign with him they do not have to go in front of the rest of Ebay with their Feedback score. They go in front of the Ebay world with His feedback score. Second is the problem being discussed sellers or friends of sellers can run up bids. There are ways to track this by using stats to look at bid patterns for bidders who bid on specific peoples consignments etc. etc. But like another member said not my business to solve his problem..But have no doubt there are ways to solve it. He has 12 million reasons to solve this quickly.

[vintagetoppsguy]

Originally Posted by olrac44

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

Why are you defending Rick? You're right, nobody realistically expects him to have the resources to research each and every auction. But he does nothing when it's pointed out to him. How can you defend that???

Again, Rick was made aware over a year ago that Joe Pankiewicz was shilling his own auctions. He chose to do nothing about it and still accept consignments from Joe, and Joe continues to shill his auctions. I'll ask you the same question, What does that tell you about Rick's character?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by olrac44

I just can't see how you can expect Rick to have the resources to research each and every one of his auctions to try and detect shill bidding?

If anybody should have the resources it would be ebay but they don't want you to know bidding information as is apparent by masking ebay id's within the bidding activity.


At some point bidders can do their 5 minutes of due diligence then make their own decision on whether they should bid or not.

Because it's been called to his attention time and again here and on CU. And what is he, the CEO of Microsoft that his business is so big he can't possibly know what's going on? Please.

[the-illini]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Why would they ever try to fix something that generates more $$$ for them at no risk?

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

Way too much smoke with this guy; it's really impossible to believe he's not either involved or purposely looking the other way. I could be wrong but I doubt it.

[bobbyw8469]

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

[Peter_Spaeth]

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

[WhenItWasAHobby]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

His auctions and PWCC are full of bidders with unbelievable numbers of retractions. If they are unaware of this they are playing ostrich.

A recent sighting?

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

And the record prices, and the apparent ability to shill with impunity, attract more consignments -- and the beat goes on.

The perfect playground for the miscreant and naive both!

[ALR-bishop]

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by ALR-bishop

....or minimum bids , or reserves or BINS...what practical difference does it make to me as a buyer. The seller has a price he is willing to sell and I as strictly a buyer I have a price I am wiling to pay. I let ebay worry about their fees and let my snipe decide if I win. Shilling means little to me as a buyer... from a practical standpoint. Ethics is another matter.

Not when you can retract, Al. Then you can see how high the top guy is and push him up as high as he will go. That is not the same as a reserve.

[botn]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Law enforcement reads the forum; one can hope.

Yeah I would not hold your breath...If eBay received enough complaints about the bid retraction history I am sure they would look into it and would apply pressure to sellers who are using or allowing this to take place.

Question for the lawyers...eBay earns a fee based on the final sale's price so if they look the other way on this type of shill bidding, if one were to sue could they be named in the suit? I figure for selfish reason they might want to step in and attempt to prevent this type of bidding activity.

[Seattle799]

.

[conor912]

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by conor912

I honestly don't understand why (every week) this comes as shock to some people. Rick (or any other consignor) doesn't give a shit, and I can't say I blame them. It's like a big bank that makes $1B on a sketchy deal, gets caught and gets fined by the SEC for $500M. Until the punishment outweighs the benefit of the crime, it's business as usual.

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

[Iron Horse]

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.


Bidder Information
Bidder: u***r ( 2026Feedback score is 1000 to 4,999)
Feedback: 100% Positive
Item description: Item Title: 1954 Wilson Franks Ted Williams PSA 4 VGEX (PWCC)
Bids on this item: 3

30-Day Summary
Total bids: 405
Items bid on: 84
Bid activity (%) with this seller: 17% Help
Bid retractions: 3
Bid retractions (6 months): 22

[conor912]

Originally Posted by calvindog

Until the first grand jury subpoena for his records comes.

Sure...but see my last sentence.

[David R]

Originally Posted by bobbyw8469

That's it boys!! That card is your record holder, pricewise! Now, not the best looking '8' of all time, but it was bid up like it was. Congrats to the winner.

Shilling is bad and I would never bid on Rick's cards, but my question is why do the buyers bid up cards like this to all-time highs? Isn't part of the problem that allows this to continue the moron buyers?

David Re1s

[botn]

Originally Posted by Iron Horse

Was interested on bidding. Took a look at the bid history and the high bidder. 22 bid retractions in 6 months? I'm not sure what is a high #, but that sounds high to me. I may be wrong and i am not accusing anyone of anything.

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by botn

I have been on eBay since May of 1997 and I have never retracted a single bid. I am sure that most members here would say the same. 22 in 6 months is astounding. This particular bidder is either checking high bids and then retracting or he needs take a typing class so he does not make so many key stroke errors.

I might have retracted one or two bids in fourteen years but I don't ever remember doing it.

[D. Bergin]

The simple solution is that Ebay limits bid retractions. The answer is plain as day.

Ebay logic however, is not.