R E Question

[shelly]

Like everything else it is only an opinon. I never said they where fake I said I dont like them. I have looked at a lot of autographs on here. I have said no when there good and said yes where they are bad. If Jimmey say they are good why would you need someone else to authenticate them? I will ask you the question if Jimmy an autograph in his opinion is real. Does that make it real?

[HRBAKER]

That's not really the question I asked but thanks for the response.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

Shelly,
Just for clarity, if you say you "don't like" an autograph - do you not think that most people interpret that to mean you doubt it's authenticity?

Jeff, in fairness to Shelly - autograph-collecting is a hobby where people will buy any Babe Ruth autographed item that has a PSA or JSA LOA. It doesn't matter it the autograph is authentic or not, and in most cases we'll never know with 100% certainly. So a 90%'er gets a lot more $$$ than a 50%'er, but the 50%'er still gets $1,000's. If an autograph is a 50%'er, I also "don't like" it. Doesn't mean I'm saying it's a fake - but yes, it does mean I have some doubt as to it's authenticity - 50% to be exact.

Calmed down and heading out for more caffeine, so at Deertick's suggestion, I won't be back until the next few cups wear off

I love you guys.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by shelly

Like everything else it is only an opinon. I never said they where fake I said I dont like them. I have looked at a lot of autographs on here. I have said no when there good and said yes where they are bad. If Jimmey say they are good why would you need someone else to authenticate them? I will ask you the question if Jimmy an autograph in his opinion is real. Does that make it real?

To quote George C. Scott in "Dr. Strangelove, "What a load of Commie bull." You don't like the autographs. You keep giving the consignor the third degree. You have--by your actions--as much as accused him of lying. But you keep falling back on the old "I never said the autographs are bad."

What kind of coward are you?

[shelly]

Jeff, I dont know what you want me to say. I did not like those autographs. It does not mean that they are not real. It is only an opinion. You didn't answer what I asked. Why if Spence already authenticated them as authentic would you go anywhere else? You have the best and your going to take a chance that someone else might in fact turn them down and loose everything.

[HRBAKER]

The fact that JSA authenticated them means very little to me. It means they "like" them, doesn't make them real and I wouldn't base spending a dime on their opinion alone. I long ago decided the autograph hobby was a little too squishy for me. I do however like to follow the developments and all the attendant drama that goes with it.

[David Atkatz]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Nobody can really prove anything. Someone can give their opinion on them but that is all you can get.

Originally Posted by thetruthisoutthere

The Babe Ruth signed ticket and the Eddie Gaedel signed photo were penned by the same person. 100%.

Is this being stated as opinion, or absolute fact?

[shelly]

Originally Posted by HRBAKER

The fact that JSA authenticated them means very little to me. It means they "like" them, doesn't make them real and I wouldn't base spending a dime on their opinion alone. I long ago decided the autograph hobby was a little too squishy for me. I do however like to follow the developments and all the attendant drama that goes with it.

So what your saying is that you are a drama queen
or king

[HRBAKER]

Originally Posted by shelly

So what your saying is that you are a drama queen
or king

No, what I am saying is that I like to read them going back and forth.

[jetsticks]

Shelly,

I've stated time and time again that my LOP is accurate as what was told to me. If you ask a child a question will you get the same answer the next time you ask him the same question? That is where I am at. I am trying to protect my mother and her failing memory and health. Yes, her version was slightly different than mine but ask her again tomorrow and you'll get another version. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to come right out and say they are fake. Your posts and comments have indicated that. I have no reason to lie as I am not keeping any of the money. I have an ailing mother who cares for my brother who has MS and their home has been foreclosed on. There, I've said what I didn't want public. My reason to get them authenticated by someone else was to get more or less a second opinion. Not someone like you looking at a picture of a picture. I've brought a lot of embarrassment to my family because we are private people and don't think anyone needs to know our life history but that is something I will deal with. Choose your words more carefully and limit your attacks and maybe you won't be bashed so much on here.

[shelly]

I feel for your mother and I wish her only the best.


"Choose your words more carefully and limit your attacks and maybe you won't be bashed so much on here."
As for that statement the basing is limited to about one complete a hole.
Have a nice day.

[David Atkatz]

LOL! "Now that I've done everything I could to make it impossible for you, now that I've called your autographs forgeries, and called you a liar, have a nice day."

Who's the "a hole"?

[BigJJ]

D,

I wish your family well too.

Withdrawal was not a great idea from a financial point of view. And what was of concern, among a few other items, was that few make decisions contrary to their financial incentive.

I think your only means of rehabbing the withdrawal decision is to present additional positive information - (i) be forthright with regard to the particulars of provenance, just stand tall and do it, and (ii) get a PSA cert in addition for all of the photos. can ask REA, or another house, Hunt, SCP, Heritage, Lelands, etc. to ask PSA to review additional information you provide and the auction houses may cover upfront -discounted- costs for PSA review.

I think if you can get a second (PSA) cert, and provide more details regarding provenance, you may make up for the withdrawal.

With regard to historical items, you are buying a percentage chance of authenticity. 90% chance a piece is signed by Ruth, the price is 7k, 70% chance of authenticity, the price if 5k, 50% chance the price is 3k etc etc. (these are not the actual prices, just illustrative).

And this is because the more knowledgeable collectors will compete for the higher percentage pieces. You want to increase the percentage chance of an autograph being real when you present it to market. It is not just a question of getting a cert and finding a willing auction house. You want 10k, 20k - not 3k, 5k! Give as much information as you can, and get the additional PSA if you can.

I wish you and your family well.

[David Atkatz]

Excellent advice, Jon.

[Big Dave]

I think the biggest mistake the consigner made was putting all 11 up at auction, at the same auction house, at the same time. If he would have spread these out over time and via a few different auction companies, I am sure he could have avoided all the noise on here.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by BigJJ

D,
With regard to historical items, you are buying a percentage chance of authenticity. 90% chance a piece is signed by Ruth, the price is 7k, 70% chance of authenticity, the price if 5k, 50% chance the price is 3k etc etc. (these are not the actual prices, just illustrative).

Yeah, I know they are just illustrative - I posted almost the exact thing earlier today

Jon - call Peter, he's hiring.

[Runscott]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I think the biggest mistake the consigner made was putting all 11 up at auction, at the same auction house, at the same time. If he would have spread these out over time and via a few different auction companies, I am sure he could have avoided all the noise on here.

You are right - he would have had a far lower chance of getting caught.

[shelly]

Originally Posted by Big Dave

I think the biggest mistake the consigner made was putting all 11 up at auction, at the same auction house, at the same time. If he would have spread these out over time and via a few different auction companies, I am sure he could have avoided all the noise on here.

Why, they where authenticated and had large bids on them. They where taken down by the seller. He has said that over and over again. 1 or 9 what difference does it make. Spence said they are authentic what more do you need.
I really can not think how somebody could make a difference once they where authenticated and placed in the auction by REA. You understand that Spence and Jsa are so respected that you would spend thousand of dollars based on an opinion

That being said. There are still some smart people out there that no better than to believe in just one man's opinion. That is why this site is so important I also like it because I get to watch a certain person make a total fool out of himself over and over again.

[BigJJ]

Originally Posted by Runscott

Yeah, I know they are just illustrative - I posted almost the exact thing earlier today

did not see that particular post earli which I just read, we are of one mind.

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by jetsticks

Shelly,

I've stated time and time again that my LOP is accurate as what was told to me. If you ask a child a question will you get the same answer the next time you ask him the same question? That is where I am at. I am trying to protect my mother and her failing memory and health. Yes, her version was slightly different than mine but ask her again tomorrow and you'll get another version. That's all I'm saying. You don't have to come right out and say they are fake. Your posts and comments have indicated that. I have no reason to lie as I am not keeping any of the money. I have an ailing mother who cares for my brother who has MS and their home has been foreclosed on. There, I've said what I didn't want public. My reason to get them authenticated by someone else was to get more or less a second opinion. Not someone like you looking at a picture of a picture. I've brought a lot of embarrassment to my family because we are private people and don't think anyone needs to know our life history but that is something I will deal with. Choose your words more carefully and limit your attacks and maybe you won't be bashed so much on here.

Shelly receives far more praise on here than bashing.

[jetsticks]

BigJJ, Runscott, Big Dave, and David.......Thanks for providing me some sound advice and words of wisdom. I am not a collector per se, but have held on to these for decades and just don't want to see them not go for what they could be worth based on someone's negativity. I have come to the conclusion that IF I do entertain the idea of selling them again, I will be more prudent and probably sell them one at a time. When I pulled them (Yes...I did, not Rob) they were worth nearly 30K. I would hope that would let some people on here know that it wasn't the money, it was how things transpired and the mistrust that forced me to do this. Yes, I could have left them on there and collected a nice check, but that is not me. I am one of the most honest people anyone would ever meet and if there was cause and concern that they were not real then I did not want to be part of a scam.

All I've ever asked for was help in proving they were real as in my heart, I know they are. You'd have to know me and the 90 year old to base your judgments on us. The Honus Wagner was very hard to part with and it has had the highest bids. Maybe I'll start with him first. Thanks again!

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Shelly receives far more praise on here than bashing.

I'd say you're right if you count all yours and Chris's praise of him, otherwise it looks to be to be about 50/50

[RichardSimon]

Originally Posted by mr2686

I'd say you're right if you count all yours and Chris's praise of him, otherwise it looks to be to be about 50/50

Excluding assumed comments by one particular member it probably comes out to 80/20.

[BigJJ]

D,
My grandfather kept his t206s, my dad his 50s cards, and since age 6, now over 30 years ago, all I have collected/dealt is pre-war autos and game used and mostly of Ruth, Gehrig, DiMaggio, Lajoie, Cobb, and Wagner plus Mantle. 7 players. Mostly game used today. but for about 10 years it was autos. I have reviewed thousands of Ruths. Your Ruths did, and do, look good to me. and though I much respect other opinions, I always review myself. I had bid on one.
What threw me was the withdrawal. and from REA. Rob is very smart and I know the due diligence he performs. I could not understand withdrawal but for concerns regarding either authenticity or ownership. and JSA does a good job too. we all make errors but they do a good job.
So I was a little thrown by a withdrawal on items REA, JSA and I had already signed off on.
Emotion as a reason for withdrawal - was this in the contract ?! I did not account for. After thousands of auctions and 30 years, I had never heard of items being withdrawn from an auction due to emotions.
But they did look good to me. ideally need name of the original owner ! and PSA.
and now you have removed your anonymity with regard to the items, people know you owned them, not an anonymous consignor, this is a plus.
My best.

[jetsticks]

Thanks BigJJ....I may have been too emotional when I had Rob remove them. We have spoken since and all is good between us. Rob was very apologetic as there was a miscommunication between ourselves. I guess I pulled them more because I was pissed at him at the time. Like I said earlier, he upset my mother and my family is now privy of what I was trying to do. I am fine with my name being out there but do not want my mother to be bothered by all this. She gets upset easily and doesn't need the emotional pain in her life right now. I am sorry I pulled them off if you were interested in one or more of them. When all this dies down, if you're still interested we can talk. I would like nothing more than to have a true collector possess these.

[David Atkatz]

As I said before, they look good to me, as well. I have been collecting for more than fifty years, and obtained my first Ruth autograph in 1965.

But, like BigJJ, I'm not a member of the elite "Net54 2%."

[mr2686]

Originally Posted by RichardSimon

Excluding assumed comments by one particular member it probably comes out to 80/20.

You crack me up Richard.

[chaddurbin]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

As I said before, they look good to me, as well. I have been collecting for more than fifty years, and obtained my first Ruth autograph in 1965.

But, like BigJJ, I'm not a member of the elite "Net54 2%."

with bigJJ perspective maybe it debunks the myth somewhat that buyers would blindly throw thousands of dollars at a ruth simply because it has a JSA or PSA/DNA cert. they could be collectors themselves who has a background and also do their own research on the piece.

[mark evans]

It occurs to me that much of the contention reflected in this and similar threads is due to the 800-lb. gorilla that sits at the heart of vintage autograph collection and that receives only passing comment -- uncertainty. While one can be virtually certain of authenticity in certain cases due to circumstances and provenance, as to the majority of items collectors must rely on the opinions of experts, or become experts themselves. But, and this is key, experts frequently disagree with one another and at times make mistakes. So, it is inevitable that there will always be debates and arguments over conclusions.

What bothers me, though, are the personal attacks. I should think that collectors and experts both could engage in spirited discussion without resort to such tactics. While such threads at times make for entertaining reading, at the end of the day I find them to be destructive to both the Board and the hobby.

Mark

[chaddurbin]

yes all opinions, nothing is factual . signatures are scary, mine can change on a daily basis. lately it's harder get a consensus on a ruth than scholars attributing paintings to titian or giorgione.

[jetsticks]

Amen Mark! Amen!

[collectbaseball]

There's a baseball sitting around here somewhere, a Harridge ball, that has a Jimmie Foxx signature on it, among others.

My grandfather got it at Fenway Park way back when, everybody in my family has always lived in Massachusetts, and between all of us we've been to hundreds of Red Sox games.

This baseball has been carefully passed down from generation to generation, with the story about how my grandfather got it at Fenway on the day Foxx hit his 50th home run in 1938.

The Foxx is a clubhouse signature. But if I didn't know that, and was tempted to sell this beloved heirloom, I'd probably send it to a premier auction house, and maybe on the day their third party of choice reviews it somebody has a toothache or heartache or something and it slips through the cracks and gets the go-ahead. And then a bunch of people start bitching about it on a forum.

I'd probably be mad and exclaim: "This has been in my family for 60-odd years and are you calling my grandfather a liar!?"

And I would not be lying. And the autograph would not be any more real.

Obviously something different is going on with the photos in question, but I think it's a similar overall mindset.

I'm the first to admit that I do not know Ruth signatures well enough to confidently call one real or not real, if I'm looking at them in a vacuum—but there is enough 'off' about this group that I wouldn't spend ten dollars on any one of them. The group of 11 signed photos and their general characteristics—that is, looking at the signatures, inscriptions, inks, photo types, and story behind them......something feels like it doesn't quite add up. I am not accusing any person or company of being unscrupulous. Something just seems fishy.

I think maybe a lot of people are used to seeing Marino forgeries or Coach's Corner specials. Compared to good forgeries those signatures look like they were drawn by a demented puppy with a hurt paw.

All that said, I would very much like for these photos to be real. They are absolutely beautiful. But, I would not buy them.