T206 Johnson psa/dna ended early????

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Posted By: Richard L.

Anyone else wondering what the winning bid would have been if the auction would have run it's course. If you check the bid history, there was a bid for 8k. In the bidders question section, seller says auction will NOT be ended early. Guess fasteddy had a change of heart.

http://cgi.ebay.com/WALTER-JOHNSON-T-206-AUTOGRAPHED-PSA-DNA-1_W0QQitemZ170179209433


edited to make link shorter....

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Posted By: Matt

This seller has been very bizarre.

He has ended his auctions a few times and then restarts them.

He also adds pictures that have nothing to do with the item he is selling to each listing.

But that was one cool card!

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Posted By: double-p-enterprises

Simple, the guy is a liar. He/she also will not answer any questions about their items and in my opinion, does not own them

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Posted By: Matt

double-p why would the seller be lying? Are they trying to scam someone? If so, why wouldn't they accept an offer to end the listing and take their money and run? I know they have received many private offes for the card and rejected them all.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

On Dec-19-07 at 06:06:53 PST, seller added the following information:

THE AUCTION WII "NOT END EARLY" i HAVE HAD SIZEABLE OFFERS BUT EVERYONE WILL HAVE A SHOT AT THE "TRAIN"

------------------------------

Ummmm......?

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Posted By: Matt

he ended all his listings at least once before and then relisted them the same day - I don't know if that's his bizarre way of attracting attention or what.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

"LOCATED AT ITS NEW HOME: WEB SITE -- WWW. T-206COLLECTOR.COM"

See edit:

http://www.t-206collector.com/

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Posted By: Doug

It says the auction "WII" not end early. Perhaps he meant he wouldn't end it early for anything other than an Nintendo Wii...

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Posted By: Matt

Doug - clearly he meant nothing short of world war 2 would stop the auction.

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Posted By: Dave F

On Dec-22-07 at 20:52:44 PST, seller added the following information:

THE T-206 WALTER JOHNSON WILL BE NOW BE LOCATED AT ITS NEW HOME: WEB SITE -- WWW. T-206COLLECTOR.COM


- Based on what he added before ending the auction...looks like Paul may be able to shed some light if he is willing as to what went on here. Its on his website now...does he now own the card? I dont know.

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Posted By: Matt

congrats to Paul, but kind of sucks for the rest of us - the seller promised me via email that no offer I could make would have him end the listing early.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Well it's a good thing everyone got their "Shot at The Train".

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Posted By: Turner Engle

Hope the seller tapes the end of the box on this card!

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Posted By: Doug

There's a post on the t206collector.com website that says

"Last night, I completed negotiations with a very generous, old school collector -- a huge admirer of the "Train" -- who was, in the end, most concerned with a proper forum for displaying his prized baseball card: a signed T206 card of Hall of Fame pitcher Walter Johnson."

I take it that answers the question of what happened.

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Posted By: Joe Drouillard

I visited Paul's site earlier this evening. Sure sounds like he got it. In any case I hope so, no one will treat the card with more respect.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Looks like Paul owes his wife an extra Christmas gift this year.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

I spoke with the seller earlier and Paul did get it. Congrats Paul! I had a $6k snipe in so I wonder if anything was left on the table?

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Posted By: T206Collector

When I saw this listing, I shared my signed T206 collection with the seller. I showed him my website and described how important it was for me to add this card to my collection. That set off a very long and interesting e-mail conversation that took us through the entire week.

In the end, he was very interested in giving the Johnson a good home and also having a place that he could go visit it at any time. He is a very old school collector with quite a collection that he is only just starting to part with. I am intrigued to see what else he has to offer and also to develop my relationship with him. Putting aside his promises not to end the auction early, he is a very stand up guy and really a gentleman.

When I get the Johnson home, hopefully sometime later this week, I will be posting additional scans and plan to have a webpage or two devoted to the card and Walter Johnson generally. That was all part of the deal.

With respect to price, the seller and I agreed to keep that between ourselves. Suffice to say, this was not a bargain and a $6,000 snipe or $8,000 bid would not have gotten it done. This was my second most expensive purchase of all time by a long shot (trailing only my Eddie Plank), caused me to sell virtually all of my remaining unsigned T206 cards to help subsidize the cost and will shut me down from further purchases for at least the foreseeable future.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Paul, good for you, it's a great(est) addition. I also appreciate that you informed the $6000 and $8000 bidders that they wouldn't have won the card anyway had the auction run it's course; these bidders would have not slept tonight otherwise. Congrats!

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Posted By: Rhys

I know it is in a PSA/DNA holder and that is the bottom line, but I do not like the looks of that signature. Some of the telltale marks of a good Johnson are missing and it looks very deliberate. I am not an authenticator, but as someone who has owned several authentic Walter Johnson signatures and am familiar with them as an autograph collector, I would have laughed at that signature had it not already been authenticated.

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

Putting aside his promises not to end the auction early, he is a very stand up guy and really a gentleman.

<Laughing out loud>

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Posted By: T206Collector

....is definitely a risky venture. In the end, unless you saw the person sign it you are taking a leap of faith. The card was apparently graded during the Spence/Grad era and, notwithstanding some of the dirt flung towards Spence lately for a poor Sal Bando decision, he is the guy I trust most with my vintage signatures.

Ultimately, if you are going to collect deadball era signatures on tobacco and caramel cards there will always be some measure of lingering doubt. But if you have a chance to acquire Walter Johnson on a T206 card, and one of the most, if not the most, respected authenticators in the hobby says its real, that is a chance I have to take. Frankly, it comes with the territory. And, in the end, it's only money.



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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Rob, fair point. But considering how much Paul wanted this card, had the seller been Jeffrey Dahmer Paul would have still said, "putting aside the seller's penchant for eating strangers, he is a really stand up guy."

If it had been a signed Hal Chase T206 I would have been saying the same thing....

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Posted By: T206Collector

...about that Jeff.

But the reason I wrote that is because he chose to share the card with someone (me) who will absolutely cherish it and he knows that and that was what moved him most to part with it. Obviously there was a financial consideration, too.

But in the end, it is true, I am totally and completely biased.

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Posted By: James Feagin

Paul,

While I respect your passion about signed T206 cards, I think myself and others will question you going to the seller and essentially asking him to break a promise he made. I understand you will cherish the card, but just because you have a website doesn't mean it will mean more to you than any other signed T206 collector (which there are a few)

James

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Posted By: Rob Dewolf

For the record, I don't question Paul at all for doing what he thought necessary to get the card. It was the seller's decision to place a higher value on a sum of money than on his word. That's not Paul's fault.

But to praise the seller as being a stand-up guy ...

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Posted By: James Feagin

You know what they say, money talks B.S. walks.

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Posted By: T206Collector

...holier than thou. If that's the way I came across, then I apologize.

However, I hardly think that asking a seller to end an auction early, even when he represents that he won't, is a bad idea. I have personally lost out on the ability to bid in too many auctions to lose out to an enterprising would-be bidder who would undercut me in this particular auction. For me, it was too important to risk losing at just about any reasonable price point that I could anticipate.

While getting more deeply into the personal discussions I had with the seller would, no doubt, help address some of the concerns raised here, it really is none of anybody's business. And so I'll keep the personal details to myself.

When cards show up on ebay, there are no guarantees that they're going to make it to closing. No matter what the seller says. When those cards are once in a lifetime cards, you owe it to yourself to make the best run at it that you can. Otherwise, you may just miss it. And with this card, I was not prepared to miss it. Even at the risk of coming across a bit salty.


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Posted By: Matt

I don't think asking to end a listing early is in poor form either; however, when the seller has already denied several people that request and made that statement publicly in the listing, it's a different animal.

I think must of us are just sour grapes (myself included) because the card is so cool.

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Posted By: Jason L

great card, neat story...looking forward to seeing the pages you build around it!

Did this guy have any interesting tobacco-era Cubbie items he might part with for a guy who cherishes his team?!

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Posted By: Adam

Congratulations to Paul, I think it's wonderful this card will now be with him.

Regards,
Adam

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Posted By: T206Collector

...But he didn't tell me about any Cubbies stuff. He's been collecting for years and has just started divesting himself of some pretty neat items.


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Posted By: quan

i don't think anyone would've gone 12k+ for the card so either way the same person would've had it in the end.

...and a shrine for the card? lol the seller's a weird dude.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

....like I have always said get your card (signed or unsigned) in a PSA/DNA holder or a PSA 9 or 10 holder and it definitely increases its value whether or not it is an authentic signature or the card is graded correctly or not.
I have had several experiences with PSA/DNA authenticating autographs. Here is two of my favorite stories.
In 1965 at the Continental Hotel in Houston, Texas, I personally watched Mr. Clemente sign 3 cards for me. Well, I decided to send them to PSA for authenticating and guess what? Only one of the THREE cards got authenticated.
In the early 1960s I sent a 1960 and a 1961 Fleer Baseball Greats cards to Paul Waner.
I received them both back signed in the same ink and the same envelope from Mr. Waner. I sent them to PSA and they authenticated one of the TWO cards.
I have always said no matter whether they authenticate your signature or question your signature's authenticity, PSA has YOUR money in the bank. Same goes with graded cards.
Whether your card is graded correctly or under or overgraded PSA has YOUR money in the bank.
I am not saying they don't try to do their BEST, I am just saying bottom line is that they still have YOUR money in the bank.
Just my own experiences and my opinion.

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Posted By: JK

"I don't think asking to end a listing early is in poor form either; when the seller has already denied several people that request and made that statement publicly in the listing, it's a different animal"

Yes, he said he wouldnt end it, but he certainly didnt deny anyone the chance to make an offer. I do agree that everyone bitching about this would have done the same thing in a heartbeat and it amounts to nothing but sour grapes.

Paul, great card. Enjoy it!

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Posted By: Richard Simon

For the information of all -

The Better Business Bureau of Southern California has given PSA-DNA a rating of D. The only worse grade they give is an F. At one time in the past they had an F. They also had a B at one point in time.
The BBB states that a D means "We have enough concerns about this company that we recommend caution in doing business with them".
--

I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.
Unknown author
--
We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.
No retreat baby, no surrender.
The Boss

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Posted By: John

"i don't think anyone would've gone 12k+ for the card so either way the same person would've had it in the end."

I wouldn't be so sure about that Quan....

Besides we could have easily found out if the above statement was true, had the auction been allowed finish I guess we would have found out who wanted it and was willing to pay for it.

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Posted By: Brett

Signed pre war cards are pretty neat and i often wonder what year the players signed some of these. It would be cool if someone had a signed one during the years that the cards were actually made or sometime during their playing days. I'd love to own a signed e98 Mathewson or a signed e94 Wagner Does anyone have a list of known signed caramel t206 era cards ???

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Posted By: Adam

Brett's question made me think of 2 questions:

(1) Based on the autographed T206s that people on the Board either own or remember seeing in an auction etc. at one point in time, could one compile a list of all autographed T206s that are known to exist? (That may be a cool additional thing for your website Paul);

(2) Did anyone know that an authographed Walter Johnson T206 card even existed before that eBay auction?

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Brett - I think signed caramel cards are much more scarce than signed tobacco cards. I know Paul has an E95 Doyle. I remember a few years back, someone owned an E95 signed Carrigan although I have no idea what has happened to it. I also have an E96 signed Mack. I'm not sure of any other 1910s era signed caramel cards although I'm sure some other float around.

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Posted By: Glen Turner

Read RHYS, RICHARD SIMON and my other post.
Just because it is in a PSA holder does not mean there is not room for error.
The only thing it means is an easier sell and more dollars for the seller.
Again just my opinion.

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Posted By: Fred C

If the signature is real then thats a totally awesome piece!

It would have been interesting to see how the auction would have ended but at least two collectors got together and had a nice old school baseball card discussion. I know this may sound sappy but sometimes it's just not the money. It's knowing that you've sold something to someone that really will enjoy/appreciate the card.

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Posted By: MVSNYC

nothing personal Paul, i'm just not a huge fan of what happened here...i just think it should have stayed its course and finished properly...the winner should have to fight for it all the way til the end (especially a big-ticket item)...there could have been several people watching it, who had ridiculously high snipes in place...my guess is that somewhere, someone (or maybe several people) are NOT happy.

oh well...we'll never know.

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Once there are legitimate bids on an item I am pretty much against asking to end the item. I will admit I have have asked people to end items (or preferably add a Buy It Now) on ebay before (as many people have) but I have never done so once a legitimate bid has been placed, just doesn't seem right to me. This case was definately a little wierd how everything played out. It does seem unusual that if the individual that eventually got it was so sure he would have topped all bids, why not just bid on the thing and do it the old fashioned way.

All that being said, add me to the list of those skeptical of this pieces authenticity. It would be nice if there was some actual provenance to go along with it. Most signed tobacco cards were signed MUCH later (late 60's & early 70's) than the time of issue, and many are players featured in "The Glory of their Times", which sparked interest in them. Not to mention the fact that the autograph just doesn't seem to be correct when compared with the many exemplars I have personally handled/seen.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

I was talking to an "old time" dealer yesterday about shows and long time dealers/collectors he knows. This guy would travel and set up in the 80's and 90's at almost every show. The cards he spoke about would be the cornerstone of any collection; full run of Rose Co. PC's, Mino Cobb, T208's, Garters, YumYum's etc.

Anyway... Suffice it to say, he has seen a ton of cards. One thing stuck with me; with all of the rare and scarce issues he would see, he rarely saw mint t-206's and never saw signed dead ball era cards in general. He believes most signed cards were forged in the 90's and most grading companies have no idea what they are looking for. I agree with the latter.

I have no idea about signatures from the 1900's (mainly cause I don't collect them), but I would be cautious about any signed card, even if it's authenticated.

It seems that most if not all of us have asked sellers to end auctions early. If you are upset with the way it went down, the seller should take the brunt of your anger. The reason most of us know that he wouldn't end the auction early is that we asked him to do just that.

Have a happy, healthy, and prosperous new year !!

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Posted By: T206Collector

...I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early. We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above.

My website does attempt to establish all known T206 cards signed by players. I have heard stories about Cicotte and Young, in addition to all those mentioned in my Signed T206 article on my site--but I've never had visual confirmation of those cards or independent proof of their authentication. But I sure didn't know about this Johnson before this listing, and I am counting on there being many others out there.

With respect to Caramel cards, I have also seen a George McBride signed E-card -- I forget the set name, but it is the one where the players all look the same except for Plank and a few others. That's why I passed on it.

In the end, I can totally appreciate why there are unhappy collectors out there. But when it comes to signed T206 cards that are not on in my collection, I will make very aggressive pushes to get them. It is just about all I collect anymore.

I have a few more thoughts about authenticity, but I'll leave those for another thread or my blog. But I think I tackled most of what I want to say on that score already. The only thing I will add now is that prior to bidding, I searched numerous authentic examples of Johnson's signature and found several that were dead on with this one.

In any event, Merry Christmas Eve!




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Posted By: John

The way I see it there are only two reasons to end and auction early.

#1.) To take advantage of a seller who doesn’t know better and get a card well below market value etc.

#2.) Or the fear and knowledge of being outbid because you know the item in question stands a strong chance of soaring past your budget, if an offline attempt isn’t made.

“I never said...I wouldn't have been outbid. On ebay, unlike most other auction formats, which give you a chance to extend the time of the auction in extended bidding, you never know what snipes are lurking in the dark. Hence my interest in ending the auction early.

I have a rule of thumb when it comes to this I think even Mike and I discussed this over drinks not too long ago. Place your max bid the most your willing to spend on the item if it holds it was yours all along, if not I guess someone wanted it that much more.

“We'll never know if someone else was coming in higher than what I paid--but what I paid was higher than the prices discussed above.”

Not now we won’t, that kind of goes without saying. This is why all sellers should list these kinds of items with auction houses then other collectors have to pay and bid with the rest of us, then the items go to the highest bidder…novel idea huh?

I guess all is fair in love and war and now baseball cards. Just not a huge fan of the way this went down, not all Paul’s fault either. As for all the warm hugs and kisses in this thread about finding the right home and the right collector for the card etc. I’m calling B.S. given the right item/auction and I’m sure all of you would have a different point of view and would be a little less quick with the baseball card collecting rendition of Cumbaya.

John


**P.S. No offense Paul but really on this?? I cant help but laugh a bit out loud no offense…. "Last night, I completed negotiations with a very generous, old school collector -- a huge admirer of the "Train" -- who was, in the end, most concerned with a proper forum for displaying his prized baseball card: a signed T206 card of Hall of Fame pitcher Walter Johnson."

I mean wouldn’t Cooperstown have worked out well if it meant so much to him? Not that www.t206collector.com with it’s 30+ days of history doesn’t have the same pull for making sure the item was put on display in the proper forum for ages to come. Is there legal paperwork to be signed still ensuring you wont sell the card anytime soon etc? Wow who knew baseball cards could be so heavy.

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Posted By: Marty Ogelvie

Paul,

Congrats on your purchase and thanks for sharing the story.

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Posted By: Jon Canfield

Paul - I can personally verify there being an authenticated Cicotte T-206. I do not own it, but I have seen it, held it, know exactly who owns it, etc - and probably can get a scan of it after the holidays.

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Posted By: Joe D.

I don't think Paul did anything wrong here.

Heck, I don't think the seller did anything wrong here.
He may have left money on the table - he may not have.



either way - great pickup Paul -
you are building a very cool collection.