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#1
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
These are two different e90-1 cards from the same set. Each are slabbed. As typical, the corners look like normal wear with the naked eye. Each has been photographed very close-up, angled at just the right position and digitally highlighted (brightness/contrast only) so that a better assessment can be made. |
#2
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Steve Murray
Looks like the corners have been re-built though not very professionally. (IMHO) I'm surprised that these would pass a competent grader's examination. |
#3
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
I am sure not envious of people who have selected a hobby niche where this consideration is important, however, it is my opinion that both cards have been altered. |
#4
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: JimCrandell
Probably both--right Kevin. Please give us the details behind these. |
#5
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Rick McQuillan
Kevin, thanks for the great post. Here is my two cents. |
#6
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: cmoking
If I had seen these in person, I wouldn't think twice as they look like a corner mush to me. But given that Kevin is posting it, the chances they are altered goes way up (or at least the chances that Kevin thinks they are altered goes way up). |
#7
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Matt
I think 1 is just a rough corner, but 2 definitely looks altered. |
#8
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: leon
My guess is also that both are altered....It looks like there's too much paper on them... |
#9
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Correct, cards 1 & 2 are both altered with rebuilt stock on trimmed edges. |
#10
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Rick McQuillan
Kevin, this is a fascinating subject for me. I appreciate the time and effort that you put into these posts. |
#11
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
Note to self: |
#12
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
Kevin- do you have any clear scans you can provide of vintage cards that have been rebacked? In particular I would like to see a close up of the edges. Thank you. |
#13
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Here you go Barry, from a thread a few months ago: |
#14
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
Thanks Kevin. It's more than a little scary because even looking at your pictures, if you didn't tell me the cards were rebacked I would probably miss it. The work is so well done that without magnification it looks seamless. |
#15
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Barry, |
#16
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
Thanks Kevin. Among other things you need good eyesight, something I was not blessed with. |
#17
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
And this example applies solely to cards which have been slit in half, correct, Kevin? |
#18
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Wesley
Are these some of the cards that you sent to PSA and SGC and the graders were unable to catch? |
#19
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
I've always felt someone could buy an N173 cabinet of Anson with a nice photo but a damaged mount... |
#20
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Matt
This stuff is very scary. What would it cost to have some serious work like this done to a card? I'm not asking to have it done; rather I want to know what value of a card do I need to worry about this stuff potentially being done to it. If it costs $500 no one is going to do it to card that will only bring in $300. |
#21
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
"Are these some of the cards that you sent to PSA and SGC and the graders were unable to catch?" |
#22
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
The Pirate one is of course incredibly scary. |
#23
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Wesley
If the Pirates can really be created in that way, that would be something else. Someone unscrupulous would have much to gain if the merging of the T213-2 of T213-3 front with the plentiful Pirate chinese backs cannot be detected by PSA or SGC. |
#24
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: barrysloate
Wes- I suppose with a vivid imagination you could create almost anything. |
#25
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Cobby33
Until grading and alteration-detecting become an exact science, it's all speculation and conjecture to me. Two different sets of eyes could call the same card auth and altered. So what's the point with all the conspiracy theories? They seem amusing enough, but what's the point? Should we all be so paranoid that we never buy any cards ever again- graded or not? |
#26
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Here are cards # 1& 2 trimmed and rebuilt. As you can see they are from the Lionel Carter collection and appropriately graded "Authentic" by SGC. Most, if not all, of his cards sold for a premium simply because the chain of custody was so tight and relatively secure. Many of his sets were purchased and preserved by his hands only or were bought/traded before doctoring cards was even a consideration. |
#27
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Jeff Lichtman
Interesting, Kevin. Are you suggesting the possibility that some of Carter's cards were replaced with latter-day altered ones before they hit the auction? |
#28
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: dennis
if someone liked their cards to look mint, alterations might have been made just to please themself.(with no intention of ever selling,or ever imagining the consequences)) |
#29
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: cmoking
"if someone liked their cards to look mint, alterations might have been made just to please themself.(with no intention of ever selling,or ever imagining the consequences)) " |
#30
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: cmoking
I won the E90-1 Lionel Carter near-set in the Mastro auction and gave a few of the Authentic cards to Kevin. Here are some thoughts on his questions: |
#31
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
"Kevin. Are you suggesting the possibility that some of Carter's cards were replaced with latter-day altered ones before they hit the auction?" |
#32
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: boxingcardman
Since no one here was there to see the alleged alterations take place, the conclusion that the cards were trimmed or rebacked or whatever is a subjective opinion based on purportedly expert analysis of a physical object. Not to say Kevin isn't with expertise in the field; merely pointing out that unless you saw the alteration performed you are stating a subjective opinion based on observations of the finished product and not an objective fact. |
#33
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Paul S
cmoking -- Carter was collecting E cards as early as 1969. He is on an old list of E collectors/traders that I have. Interestingly, so is Bill Mastro. (edited to add: I am making no "suggestions" by adding Mastro's name, just stating a name that is prominent to all and that I thought was interesting. There are 49 names on this list, Nagy included.) |
#34
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Kevin Saucier
Adam...I've said it before, when I need an attorney I'm calling you first! It helps that your local as well |
#35
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Gilbert Maines
"unless you saw the alteration performed you are stating a subjective opinion based on observations of the finished product and not an objective fact" |
#36
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: cmoking
Paul, thanks for the interesting tidbit, its always nice to hear of firsthand accounts. Did you buy chance buy/sell/trade with Lionel Carter? Any interesting stories? |
#37
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Rob Dewolf
Here are two examples that illustrate perfectly the comment about not all of Mr. Carter's cards that were altered appearing near-mint. The Easterly looks beautiful, but check out the bottom corners on the Goode. |
#38
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: jay wolt
I have some Auth Carter cards as well |
#39
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altered? - what are your thoughts?
Posted By: Paul S
cmoking -- Thanks for the very interesting link. Nope, I never b/s/t-ed with Carter (I wish!) I was pretty young then and just starting to go after pre-war, probably didn't have the nerve. The list is from a Candy and Gum issue "Handbook" I got at the time. I put up a few pages here on another thread a couple of weeks ago -- not sure which one. If interested shoot me an email and I'll send you a scan. |
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