a major problem

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Posted By: jay behrens

It's quite obvious that one of the major problems with this forum is the self appointed thread hijackers. These are the same few people who find it neccessary to hijack a thread they don't like so that all legitimate discussion will be stopped.

A perfect example is the new thread MW started about The Card. As Dan pointed out, it only took 2 posts for the self appointed thread hijackers to step in and try and derail yet a topic that they don't like. It's the same people all the time.

If you people don't like a thread, skip it. If you really find it necessary to talk about Seinfeld, The Simpsons or whatever, then start an OT thread, but quit hijacking threads and trying to stop legitimate discussions on this forum.

I've been one of the biggest and most outspoken people about how nothing should be deleted, but the constant hijacking of threads by a few people almost warrants it. The better way to handle it is to start instituting temporary bans if these people can't behave.

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Well Jay, it is certainly poor etiquette to hijack a thread. I would think that if a colleague felt the need to take a thread on a tangent, he would be sufficiently courteous to return the discussion to its intended course prior to ending his posting.

And I agree that censorship is an inherently harmful tactic.

However, we do not agree in the banning of participants. Now I am not talking about 11 year old kids who occasionally visit via Leon's generosity and tolerance. I mean the banning of regular contributors. That is an option which is guaranteed to cause bad feelings, and with that recognition, ALL efforts to avoid employing that option should be exhausted first.

This is all just my humble opinion, and I admit that I have no idea how to run this board. Thank goodness someone does, 'cause we've gotten this far!

Its Only Gil

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Posted By: Dylan

I second that motion. The constant Seinfeld "quiz shows" are getting old. You guys probably think you are being real cute and funny, but enough is enough.

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Posted By: barrysloate

If the Seinfeld posts are becoming too much of a distraction, I am more than happy to cease and desist.

The only point I will make in my defense is the board is not a war room. We're not here to rid the world of all its ills. While this is unquestionably a place to discuss vintage baseball cards, most of us are friends and we have formed a bit of community. And not every thread is so earth shattering that it needs our undivided attention. As such, it's not that big a deal if we want to take a little break and have some fun.

If you were walking the aisles of the National, bumped into an old friend, and started talking about a movie you saw the night before, do you think you should be kicked out? After all, you are at the National to buy and sell baseball cards, not chat about movies.

Quite frankly, I find some baseball card threads that are more boring to me than the off topic ones. I don't want to single them out but there are many I see that I say to myself "why is someone wasting time with this pointless thread?" Not every baseball card topic is a fount of information either.

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Posted By: Dan Kravitz

Jay- When threads start fading away and the topic has been hashed over and over, I don't see any issue with anyone posting off topic issues. Sometimes we need to lighten up just a tad. It's fricken cardboard and personally I am hear to get away from the daily grind and relax. If Barry and others want to talk about the Simpsons, it's fine with me. It's like being at dinner with 50 guys... Sometimes the topics are injected with some fun. I would say that threads can weather a couple interjections and off topic remarks and get back to topic if need be. DK

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Jay, will you please stop whining? If you don't like the content here why don't you go back to the Board you started to get away from all this.

You have been around this Board long enough to know what to expect. It should be no surprise. Yet you continue to be critical when we go off topic. It's getting real old.

When I have no interest in a thread or the direction it has taken I just don't read it. It's that simple.

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Posted By: fessgreg

i'm with jay. this is a baseball card forum not a movie review or tv trivia forum. however friends should be able to discuss non baseball card topics. therefore, start a seperate thread if you want to discuss non baseball card stuff. the same holds true for one baseball card topic vs. another. start a new thread if you are going to discuss a new topic. this way things are organized for readers. i'm not trying to be the forum police but i think these ideas are good for the readership. signed greg

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Posted By: Bill Stone

I agree --this forum is like the owner's box at Yankee Stadium and no one would dream of wearing a Baltimore Orioles cap during a Yankees game while sitting in the box. We should stick to discussing vintage baseball cards.

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Posted By: jay behrens

The only way any change will happen is if people voice their complaints. I don't have a problem with people wanting to talk about something other than cards from time to time, but you can do it without hijacking a thread. Leon allows some leeway with OT posts, so those that feel the need can start whole new thread rather than hijack an active thread. one person's dead and overhashed thread is someone else's active and vibrant thread. Why do the hijackers get to decide what is dead thread and what is active thread?

I almost posted this in MW's thread, but realized that I would have done the very thing I was complaining about. Even though I helped start another forum, I still read and post here because this is home and I still care about it. The beauty of the other forum is that we have editing capabilities that don't exist here. If someone tries to hijack a thread, we can take that post and move it to a more appropriate area without having to delete the post and we keep the thread from being hijacked. Hell, we can start an area just for Seinfeld trivia, or any other topic, if enough people want an area for that.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

See Bill- you snuck in a Seinfeld reference but I think it fell under the radar. Was anyone offended by it?

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Posted By: Steve f

C'mon Killjoys, get real... This is a board about sportscards, not a Hospice support group. It's okay to have a little fun here. We all grow old, but we don't have to grow up.

I support the harmless Seinfeld references -one of the greatest American television shows with many references to vintage ball!

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Bill, you make a good analogy. I'm guessing if you dared to wear an O's hat in the owner's box at Yankee Stadium, whoever gave you those tickets would sure be pissed.

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Posted By: Dave F

I'm a little more offended there are always all of these Seinfeld quotes...but have I ever been witness to an old Cheers thread or even quote on the board? No.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's interesting that the board is pretty much evenly divided on this issue.

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Posted By: Dave F

Barry...maybe it was just the town of Boston that caused yourself to turn your head away from Norm and Cliff.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Never really watched Cheers- but I lived in Boston for 2 1/2 years...Well, we're off topic again.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Talking of Boston, there is only one good game, or two lesser ones which seperate the former mound stalwarts from that city. Clemens still occupies the No.2 slot behind Ryan in career Ks. But the Big Unit has moved within 13 strikeouts of him, and continues to threaten to pass the Rocket.

And regarding hijacking a thread, I still contend that it is a matter of courtesy to put it back on track once you have taken it off course.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

Anyone who would deem this a "major problem" needs a lesson on perspective. To suggest that there is some intent to stifle legitimate discussion is ludicrous. And to attack Barry, one of the core contributors to this group, is uncalled for.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I don't feel personally attacked, but thanks for the support. There are many others who like to talk about Seinfeld and other trifles, so we are really weighing baseball card discussion vs. chit chat. And the question Jay is posing is: Is the board going downhill because of too much extraneous stuff?

And my response is I don't think it is, and to call it a major problem is plain silly. It's fair to bring it up for discussion, but it's far from major. And if Jay says that is why he's jumped ship to the other board, well, he's free to do so. Both are available to whomever wants to participate.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

A: Scott Patterson

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Wow....if this is a major problem for you, something's wrong.

I differentiate between adding a little levity to a post and a blatant hijacking attempt [see the rock and roll hijack on Jim Cradell's posts this year.] I am also surprised at some of JB supporters who are manifestly guilty of true hijacking [remember my post on the LI National Card Show and Mr. Maine's rude and unecessary comments on Long Island]. I guess it's not hijacking when you do it Gil.

Clearly this post relates to Barry. He's a big contributor to this forum and his Senfeld referrals do not hijack posts...rather they just make them more interesting to a lot of us here. Otherwise it would be the same old "...graded card guys are ruining the hobby, yada, yada, yada...."

Frank

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Posted By: barrysloate

Steve- I assume that is the answer to your question from yesterday (or is he the guy serving life in prison), but I forgot who Billy was. Since this likely may be my last Seinfeld post, I might as well give the answer to my question and then call it a day.

A: the actress is Tracy Nelson; her father was Ricky Nelson and her grandparents were Ozzie and Harriet.

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Posted By: Bill

I think a little humor adds some personality to the board/threads and I always enjoy reading Barry's posts no matter what the topic is. That, and I'm going to war in a few months so something like a thread hijacking on a message board has little significance in my life.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Yes, Scott Patterson, a minor league player for Columbus or was it Columbia?, played "Billy".

Tracy Nelson is an absolute doll. I should have gotten that one.

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Posted By: barrysloate

And Frank- if it's true that Jay's comment was directed solely at me, I can take it. I've been called worse.

Bill, are you really go off to war?

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Posted By: Bill

Yes. We were supposed to go at the beginning of July but since they announced the start of 15 month deployments, the unit we are replacing has to stay three more months and we got bumped up. Whether or not we actually end up doing 15 months is beyond anyone's guess the way our government works.

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: mike

A little humor is good once in a while. We all know it is a baseball card forum. We know that. That's why we're here. A little humor once in a while won't extinguish the sun. A think a few folks could use a little relax pill. I'm sure a few will be offended by the word "pill". Tuff....

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Posted By: barrysloate

Bill- sorry to hear that and I wish the whole thing would go away, but it won't.

Getting back to the topic of being off-topic, it might not be a terrible idea to have a new poll (the Caramel card one seems played out) and see how the group as a whole feels about off topic posts. I personally feel it adds some character to the board and gives friends a chance to relax and have some fun. I think threads digress for two reasons: 1)they are plain boring and aren't going anywhere; 2) there are personal fights going on and it's a good way to sidetrack them.

I'm not sure what the urgency is to keep every thread on the straight and narrow. I have to say I find a lot of them very dull, and some of the off-topic ones more interesting. And let's be frank- nobody is going to start a thread "did you see last night's Seinfeld rerun?" That's never going to happen, so the suggestion of doing that seems foolish.

If anybody finds a thread veering off topic, my suggestion is post and put it back on course.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Frank: I certainly recall a discussion regarding whether or not NYC (and Brooklyn)dumped their garbage in the surrounding communities. But it was never my intent to make a lifelong enemy over that observation.

I do not recall the subject matter of the thread that these comments were shared in, nor do I recall whether I initiated the off topic commentary, or simply kept the ball rolling o/t. In either case, your notation is correct. I have taken threads off topic.

Please let it further be known: I have driven without my seatbelt, jaywalked and possibly other wrong things. But I continue to strive to do them no more. And with the continued support of those who like yourself, remind me of the evil deeds of my past, we will jointly achieve success in making Gil into a far better human being and who knows? Maybe even a productive member of society.

However, regarding thread hijacking, it is my opinion that it is simply a matter of courtesy to return the thread to its intended direction once you have fully explored the tangent which seemed so important.

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Posted By: Peter Spaeth

How about a poll, Do you think the Wagner is trimmed?

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Barry: Quick now:

When you come across a thread which you find to be "very dull", why do you post in it?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Fair point, and I should be clearer.

If I have no interest in a thread, I may give it no more than a glance or not look at it at all. What I am referring to are topics that start off interesting and go nowhere. The discussion of the O'Keefe book was just that. The original poster Joe got it off to a good start, then all anybody said after that was they hate the book and it wasn't worth discussing. It started strong but it just fizzled.

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Posted By: Greg

The more and more I read on here the more I have to laugh. Why do I have a feeling that there are some people on here that if I did ever get the chance to meet them, I think I would love hanging out with them for an afternoon talking pre-war ball, while there are others on here that, in the short time that I would know them, I would be searching for the door looking for a more pleasant group of folks to talk to, even though they may be talking about Webkinz.

Lighten up people, it's a hobby. Why is there always so much bitching on here?

Have some freakin fun in your life. Life's too short. If you don't like reading about Seinfeld or some other topic that has nothing to do with just cards or plastic slabs, stop reading.

This forum needs more psychiatrists and psychologists to figure out all of these ego trips on here.

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Posted By: Randy Trierweiler

Here is what Jay said: "It's quite obvious that one of the major problems with this forum is the self appointed thread hijackers. These are the same few people who find it neccessary to hijack a thread they don't like so that all legitimate discussion will be stopped"

I don't think anybody will agree that hijacking occurs BECAUSE they want "legitimate discussions" to be stopped. Thats ridiculous. Actually, the longest and most vocal threads are full of "legitimate discussions". Thats why many read and post here.

There are alternatives: There is the other board. They had a total of 7 posts yesterday, 6 of which, ironically, were comments about Net 54 and shots at Leon.

My solution: Leave it alone. The board will never be perfect. Some folks will have an issue with this topic or that topic, or the dreaded Off-Topic. For all the personalities involved here, I think this board runs pretty well. I think the leeway given by the board moderators is just about right. I believe most of us would not want the moderator job, I know I wouldn't.

How many of us have been coming here for years? Something is going right on this board.

Just leave it alone, its not that bad.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Greg and Randy- well put!

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

You know Greg, I was just thinking what a good subject for a Doctoral Psych thesis this board would be. But really, you have to understand that there are several sports which we engage in here, and bitching is just one of them. And it is like the sandlot: we choose up different sides every day.

However, regarding thread hijacking, my position remains unchanged. Jay is correct. That is, defining "major" as somewhat less than life threatening.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

Barry:

Please consider the possibility that the author of a thread may not consider the subject which he has chosen to be "very dull". And if his thread is going awry, he may be waiting for the exact right moment to shove it into the groove which he intended for it to follow.

And here enters Barry ... the executioner. In his wisdom, Barry executes the thread, then charges it with being dull, then posthumously finds it guilty. And even the author can not revive a corpse, but he sometimes starts again. As just happened.

A little dramatic? Well yes, that is another sport.

However, there appear to be some who object to showing the author of a thread any respect. What exactly is the objection to showing the courtesy which this communication vehicle warrants, I wonder. Who will put any time or effort into a post which is going to be treated as if it was a 19th century stagecoach?

Where are these other boards which I hear about? Scott Elkins has one, and Jay B. another, are there other vintage boards? Please e-mail identify7@peoplepc.com with the addresses of these so that I can visit them, or please direct me to a listing of them.

Thank you, Gil

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Posted By: Bill

What is this other board that is spoken of?

Change your socks, drink water, and drive on.

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Posted By: joe brennan

I come to this board ot get away from the daily grind. I can get all the seriousness I need from life, raising 3 girls, paying bills and keeping my head above water. A little humor goes a long way in life. If someone wants to post a serious post on a card thread it can be done between the attemted humor. Don't like the humor in the thread skip down to the serious discussion. DOn't like the serious discussion, skip to the humor. Don't like the mix? Go to a save the world board, or a political board. Cardboard people, we are talking cardboard. Little pieces of cardboard with dead people on them. Dead men that we sit and look at or dream of owning. I think that should end all the seriousness of the board. "

Can you keep my secret? I see dead people."

In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: Joe Pelaez

By now we all know how Barry feels about dull threads.

A little Seinfeld, a little SNL, a little spellin and gramma.

You have to admit, it's great stuff, for stressed out cardboard people.

So, if you find any of the above inserted in any one of your threads, it isn't that he's calling you DULL.

It's Barry's way of being a humanitarian.

He's uncontrollably compelled to help out the old cardboard stressed out Dullards. ... especially around auction time.

Which brings us to the hypothetical thought.

What if some members of the Old Cardboard Dullards board decided to return the Humanitarian favor?

Barry's phone auctions can become tedious, and stressful.

What is more appropriate than the Dullards trying to un stress the humanitarian in a moment of need.

That's right. ... It's time for Seinfeld, SNL and spellin & gramma.

Take some pressure off him on auction day.

See how far your Seinfeld exchange will go.

It's only a hypothetical thought.

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Posted By: Joann

We seem to talk about OT posts and thread hijacking interchangeably, but they are different.

OT post that starts a thread? Should be rare, and the more OT the more rare. Honestly, it seems like it went a long time with the informal rule of leeway to regulars working very well in the background. Then it started getting abused lately, and Leon had to put out some guidelines including the "one per month" rule of thumb. Now I have this mental image of a few people anxiously watching the calendar to see when their next OT opportunity will arrive. lol. C'mon - it's the spirit of the thing - minimize OT threads. Don't act like one per month is your due and right.

Thread hijacking is different, and at least to me less disruptive than completely OT threads. Sometimes hijacks are off the topic of the thread but still on topic for the board. It seems like the grading issues are the final destination for all threads sometimes. Sometimes hijacks are into completely OT areas, and I think this friendly banter is harmless and even enjoyable.

The key to me on the hijacks is whether the original topic of the thread has been exhausted, or can reasonably be believed to be exhausted. That's a judgment call, and I think Gilbert's use of courtesy as a guideline is a good one. But if a thread isn't going anywhere, or has already gotten there, then I don't see the harm in the occasional reference to Moops. hee.

Joann

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Posted By: John

Barry, there will be no fighting in the War Room!

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Posted By: barrysloate

Hi John- that was Peter Sellers in "Dr. Strangelove"

I hate to draw attention to myself (I'll get lambasted for that too probably) but is it fair to say I make a significant contribution to the board, and that I am willing to share my 25 years of knowledge with anybody who asks a question? I am active on both the card and memorabilia board, and I'm not really even a collector anymore- I'm a fulltime dealer. Would somebody please name one other dealer who gives up his time and knowledge for the benefit of Net54 like I do?

That's why I am a little more sensitive to this criticism. Gil, it sounds like you are not comfortable with my O/T posts, but when a newbie comes on the board and asks a simple question I am usually the first one to hop in and answer it without insulting him. I would like to be cut a little slack.

And for Joe, who has a little problem with my phone auctions, it looks like if all goes as planned my June auction will be the first one with online bidding. We are working at it feverishly as I type this.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

I think most to all serious issues are well discussed on this board. There are frivolous interludes in some threads, but I have yet to see where it prevented serious discussion on an important topic. My offending aside about Ned Flanders didn't derail the train.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

We have reached a new level of irony here!! A thread complaining about hijacking is itself hijacked by Joe to attack the auction practices of one of our truly stellar members.

Serenity now....serenity now...

Frank

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Posted By: jay behrens

Barry, this was never meant to single you out. There are other posters that are just as guilty of hijacking threads they don't like or find boring.

The point is that I am not bothered by OT posts. Hell, I was the probably the king of that area at one time. My problem is with people that find it necessary to make random observations for no other reason than they think that the topic is dead or of no interest to them, etc. To me, that's disrespectful to the person that started the thread. If you really need to make a post about some random OT observation or TV show trivia, then start a new thread.

Hijackings can be intentional, or unintentional. Some are good, some are bad. The ones that go from one legit forum topic to another isn't such a bad thing. Ones that go from a legit forum topic to a Seinfeld trivia contest are a bad thing.

Even I make hidden references to different movies, etc, but I really don't want to see the topic sidetracked by it. It's meant to add some humor levity, not start a new discussion. Maybe I should be taking my frustration out, not on Barry and others who make the initial reference, but on those that can't think of anything better to contribute to the board than add more stupid Seinfeld trivia after someone else does it. Hell, why doesn't someone start a thread for Seinfeld trivia and then you can get it all out of your system in one area.

As to the other board, Scott's board is the board that I help run. As far as I know it's the only other board geared towards pre-WW2 cards and memorabilia. As to the "snapshot" someone provide about the other forum, that like taking a snapshot of here during all the turmoil 6 or so months back and saying that is all net54 is about. Nice spin there doctor.

All I am asking is that if you think a thread is dead, then let it die, don't inject Seinfeld or rock trivia, etc into it.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- I hear what you are saying and I don't disagree, but there is something about this board (and here's where a study of psychology might come in) that causes people to digress and veer off course. I don't think they mean to be disrespectful, even if it comes off that way, but somebody will say something that reminds somebody else of a funny story, and there you go, it heads in a different direction.

One thing I find interesting is the immense popularity of Seinfeld on this board. I happen to be an equally big Simpsons fan, and think at its prime it was as good or better than Seinfeld, but we rarely hear a peep about that show. Yet the Seinfeld trivia keeps going on unabated. And it has absolutely nothing to do with what we are talking about- but people still enjoy sharing anecdotes from the show. I think at some level posters want to have fun too. This is not a graduate seminar in baseball history, and we're not going to have a quiz tomorrow. It's just a place to relax and chat about baseball cards, and digressions are a normal part of discourse.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

I had my first visit to the other board this afternoon. I guess that there is only one other cards board.

Anyway, it is a lot like this one. It has some of the same faces. No big deal.

I guess that I don't know all of its features yet.


And Barry, I really do not care about your off topic actions nor your interest in TV shows. But I am surprised that I wound up on the losing end when I suggested courtesy and consideration for the author of a thread. Have at 'em.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Gil- this thread has gotten long and I don't remember everything that was said. How did you end up on the losing end? Sorry, but I'm missing something.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Barry, I think he's referring to my comments on his own lack of courtesy and consideration for the author of a thread

Frank