Paperloss on Front + PSA = 4

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Posted By: Josh K.

Can somebody please tell me what this grader was looking at?

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=200004902567&sspagename=ADME:L:RTQ:US:1</a

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Posted By: Sean

The bottom of his Jack Daniels bottle?

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Posted By: Joe D.

I am guessing that card will never ever, never ever get cracked out!

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Posted By: cmoking

it sucks.

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's clearly mislabelled. I'm sure the grader knew that isn't a 4, but the wrong label was affixed to the card. It should be corrected, because I don't think any buyer will accept it.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Barry,

I'd agree with you if:

1. The label said something other than E101 - Nap Lajoie (I seriously doubt that there are too many of those being graded at any one time)

2. I didnt just receive several E93 psa 4s with paperloss on the reverse.

History with psa makes me think this is not a labeling mistake, but a grading mistake. Maybe the grader simply stopped after looking at the back of the card.

(by the way, the auction is already over $300 - which is probably already double what the card is worth. Clearly the high bidder is bidding on the grade and not the card).

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Posted By: Cat

Maybe we should dust for WIWAG fingerprints.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Josh- It's hard to imagine even the most careless grader thinking that is a 4, and the problems aren't subtle. If he thinks it is a 4, he should find another line of work. As far as the price being over $300, anybody will chase anything these days, that's just the nature of the market.

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Posted By: jay behrens

I think the grader was counting the number of spots of paper loss on the front and mistakenly thought that was grade.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: Bob

And to think I received some EXish PSA 1909 Obaks back from PSA over a year ago which were beautiful and graded PSA2. No justice....

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Posted By: JimB

I would guess it is a WIWAG job. No grader is that bad.
JimB

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Posted By: Josh K.

Wigwag took place before my entry back into the hobby, but I always thought that the switches were never that obvious. Rather they would crack out a higher grade card - say a 7 or 8 and put a 4 or 5 in its place. In other words, I thought the scam was so successful (at least until they were caught) because it wasnt so obvious that the cards were being switched.

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Posted By: V117Collector

I may be a newbie but I'm hearing it more and more "the hobby is

corrupt" from dealers and collectors from all over the place!

You really have to know your stuff if your considering buying a

card this days. As I get more involved in the hobby I'm noticing

that graded card are kinda bogus (just look at the graded card

above) beat up cards that are slabbed with a ridiculous grades

on them, How can that be?

I just got some cards graded from sgc and I'm very surprised with the low grades that some cards received. (I'll post a thread as soon as I get them back)


BUY THE CARD NOT THE GRADE!

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Posted By: Josh K.

V117Collector - low grades on decent looking vintage cards should not be a surprise whether graded by psa or sgc. That is not evidence of the grading companies being corrupt (nor is this post intended to imply that psa is corrupt). If you are new to the hobby (as opposed to just this board) you will soon realize that very minor things can hurt the grade of an otherwise outstanding looking vintage card. If you submit to sgc and your card has a wrinkle that can only be seen with magnification - its going to get no better than a 40 in almost all circumstances. If it has a spec of paperloss its unlikely to receive higher than a 30 no matter how nice it looks.

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Posted By: Bob

V117- I share your angst over grading, I think we all have had some lulus come back with lower than anticipated grades. Your more important question, though, seems to be with cards which are graded and are not as they appear to be. I think it is important to check out the card scans these days and not just rely on "PSA 4" or "SGC50" or "GAI 4" designations, not because people are slipping in crads to the holders, but because there is a lot of disparity and subjectivity in grading. Even though SGC and GAI bounce me around with lower than expected grades on caramel cards and reject cards for trimming which I feel are ok, if I happen to get a card in one of their holders I feel the card is legit. I think it is also important to know which companies are death on certain things: for instance SGC is brutal if an otherwise nice card has border chips (ask Josh) but is lenient on staining. I bought an SGC 40 caramel recently which had only a front scan and the front looked 40ish but the back had bad staining the length of the card. It helps to know. It also helps to ask questions, such as "any staining or paper loss on the back?" even if it is an SGC or GAI slabbed card and most certainly if raw, where a back scan is not provided. Gone are the days when I'll have someone offer an SGC40 or 50 or GAI 3 or 4 card and I'll buy it sight unseen. Gotta have that scan now and yes you are right: BUY THE CARD NOT THE HOLDER!

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Posted By: quan

i've had sgc60 with front paper loss, i've had sgc60 with back wrinkle...i've known of trimmed card in psa7 case, i've had gai6.5s that won't cross over to a psa5. it's all subjective, sgc overgrades sometime, psa overgrades sometime, gai overgrades most of the time ...nothing new or earth-shattering here. if i want to i could start a new thread like this everyday.

edited to add i would personally grade the lajoie a 2.

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Posted By: Gary Nuchereno

In the most recent goodwin auction there was a
psa 6 caramel card that had paperloss on back.
IMO a card with paper loss on back should never
grade higher than fair. Most people who sell graded
cards state no returns on graded cards. If I got that
Lajoie as a psa 4 I would be most upset. I believe
several years ago Superior had an auction of a
caramel card graded PSA 7 and superior noted in its
description that it had minute paper loss on back.
By the way it was mentioned in the description in
the Goodwin auction also.

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Posted By: V117Collector

Josh K. - psa' or any other grading company must be corrupt if there over grading cards!

Just look at the cards, there is know way it's close to a 4/50. If that's the real grade on the card, I would want the same guy slabbing my cards all the time and to make sure I'd slip him a few extra buck no the side to keep him happy(someone make money).

You don't have to be a genius to know that there's a unknown percentage of card that are extremely over graded (corrupt). This grading Co. can do whatever they want know ones policing them, is there?

another example:

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Posted By: barrysloate

To say that the grading services are at times incredibly careless is fair; to say they are corrupt suggests they are deliberately misgrading for their own personal gain. I feel that is a bit harsh. But I must admit some of the examples people have put up on this thread are dreadfully overgraded. What's the solution to this?

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Posted By: jay behrens

I can't think of one. The people that own the cards aren't about the crack the cards out and there is no way PSA will ever buy them back. Orlando will come up with another one of his lame excuses to justify the grade and actions of his company, or even decert the card, which tehy have done before with their major mistakes. SGC has already proven that they will bite the bullet and buy back grossly overgraded cards.

About the only way anything will ever change over at PSA is if Joe Orlando leaves PSA and his replacement actually cares about the quality of their product.

Jay

Growing old is not optional, growing up is.

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Posted By: barrysloate

I can understand how a card can come back a VG-EX 4 and really only be a VG. At that level it becomes subjective. But the E101 Lajoie is a 1 at best and a 4 is so off the charts that it very well may be the wrong label was put on the card. I've said this before and I'll say it again: grading is a very repetitive and boring job. Think about having to do it 8 hours a day five days week, and being under a constant deadline to get cards out ASAP. I feel I am a pretty good grader but if I had a job like that I bet I would make a ton of mistakes. By the end of the day I would be cross-eyed and falling asleep. Not trying to make excuses for them, but I always like to look at issues from the other side.

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Posted By: fys

PSA has a buyback program now. Time to see if they actually have a guarantee or if you will have to take them to small claims court for an illeged "mislabel."

Per PSA literature received recently with my collectors club package:

The PSA Guarnatee fo Grade and Authenticity: This policy is fundamental to PSA's concept of third-party grading. It ensures the accuracy of the grade assigned to any PSA-graded card as long as the card remains in the its tamper-evident holder. PSA also guarantees that all cards sumbitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA.

A bit of potential legal wording to back out of any real guarantte, but the spirtit of the guarantee shoud be that PSA guarantees the grade assigned to be accurate and that the card is authentic/ulatered or you will be compensated.

Doesn't BOTN have a safe full of altered PSA cards in holders. Time to cash in and get those cards out of circulation and get paid.

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Posted By: Paul

If this is the result of accidentally mixing up two labels, you've got to feel sorry for the poor guy with a beautiful VG-EX Lajoie sitting in an "Authentic" holder.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

"it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA"

Does NOT mean it shall be graded accurately. If they wanted to say that it would be simple: "We guarantee that we will grade your cards accurately."

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Posted By: FYS

"it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA"

"Does NOT mean it shall be graded accurately. If they wanted to say that it would be simple: "We guarantee that we will grade your cards accurately."

I agree the statement means nothing from a legal perspective, as it can be argued forever whether or not a card was graded per grading standards. However, does PSA stand behind the spirit of the guarantee. That is the question. If they do not, then they simply can not trusted.

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Posted By: Brendan

PSA does stand by their buyback program, and I'd imagine they would be very happy to get that one off the market. If a card is deemed overgraded by PSA, you have two options as the card owner:

1) PSA will pay you "market value" for the card in the wrong grade (usually SMR value)

or

2) PSA will return the card to you with the correct grade, and PSA will reimburse you the difference between the overgraded "market value" and the correct grade "market value"

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Posted By: PC

Actually, the words "it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA" are straightforward enough ... that card should be submitted to PSA for payment under their guarantee.

First, that card does not meet PSA's stated "grading standards" for a 4. According to PSA: "PSA VG-EX 4 card's corners may be slightly rounded. Surface wear is noticeable but modest. The card may have light scuffing or light scratches. Some original gloss will be retained. Borders may be slightly off-white. A light crease may be visible. Centering must be 85/15 or better on the front and 90/10 or better on the back." Here's the link to PSA's grading standard page: http://www.psacard.com/grading/grading_standards.chtml Does all that paper loss constitute modest surface wear? No way.

Second, it is likely that the card was mislabelled, as opposed to overgraded. You can read PSA's procedures here: http://www.psacard.com/grading/process.chtml Since it is hard to believe that two (and possbly three) graders determined that card was a 4, one can only conclude that the card was improperly labelled, which means it was not properly processed "under the procedures of PSA".

Either way, PSA should honor the guarantee in this case.

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Posted By: Bob

Brendan- So if I buy this crappy looking card on ebay and send it to PSA, they will regrade it a "1" and send me the difference in price between a "1" and a "4" (a considerable chunk of change)?
tbob

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Posted By: Josh K.

Bob,

My guess is they will give you the difference in SMR values between a 1 and a 4 - not the difference in what you paid and what you would have paid for a 1. In otherwords, since SMR values are so much lower than real market values, I think you would still take a loss on this card. I bet the SMR for a 4 is under $300.

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Posted By: Rick

I think as a seller you can actually hurt your reputation by selling "dogs"

Wether you think that by having the card graded you can simply say its not your fault..its just not right.

If i summited that card ..I would send it back to PSA...get either money or free subs..work something out rather than sell a grossly overgraded card.

Its an ethical flaw for seller ...he saw the card ..he knew it was it either a mistake or just gross negligence...he decided to sell it as a higher grade than it deserved and collect quickly.

In the coin hobby there are well known "problem coins" that have somehow made it holders...some dealers refuse to work with these coins and there are other dealers who are known to handle these coins and passed them on to inexperienced collectors who will trust the holder.

All grading companies will make mistakes ...We can limit the effect these mistakes can have on the inexperienced collector and avoid a painful and costly learning experience.

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Posted By: WP

Is the submitter entitled to compensation, if PSA overgraded his card? What are the damages? I can see how a buyer is entitled to compensation but the submitter really has no loss.

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Posted By: Rick

agreed ...maybe the summiter could get a few free subs ?

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Posted By: Kevin Savage

I am the ebay seller of the card in question- and after reading the responses on this board- I am defintely rethinking my ebay consignment policy.

As a point of reference- About 2 months ago- I received back from a grading service- a T201 Cobb graded a 5 with a "somewhat obvious" pinhole. I sent the card back to the grading company who "properly" put it in a 1 holder. They were genuinely pleased that I did this. I think it was the right thing to do.

It is a little tougher however when the item is a consignment piece(not owned by us)- as this is- which we had graded with about 75 other cards- for the customer- as was his wish so we could later sell them on ebay for him. In my opinion PSA "got it right" on all but 5 to 8 of the cards we sent in for him. In my customers opinion- the "gift" he received on this card helps make up for "how he got killed" on several others.

I guess my dilemna is do I turn away a customer who wants to consign $40,000 in cards(with the potential for a lot more)- because I am insistent on him having the Lajoie card regraded- and sold at what I think is the proper grade?(Please remember I cannot produce any kind of "Upward grading change" on the cards he thinks he got "killed on".....) Or do I list all of his cards on ebay with a full
front and back scan- offer a return privilige on every card- and truthfully answer all questions pertaining to the listed card? In the second scenario(what I did) am I doing "ethically enough" to protect the consumer?

I would think with the scan on ebay- the Lajoie card would sell for a "1 or 2" price. Maybe $400 is the 1 or 2 price today. Maybe it's not.... In the end if the customer doesn't like it - they can send it back for a full refund.

I know "grading" errors makes everyone crazy- but I just know that there are going to be mistakes- (both high and low)-it is a demanding job- as I make mistakes every day(even though I'm not trying to- and my job is not as demanding....). Is it unethical to sell any card which I do not personally agree on the grade with the grading company?

It is tough having 2 masters(The consignor and the consumer)-
but we are in the business of providing a fair business environment for all concerned parties. Maybe we could have done better here-let me know- as it is not my intention to mislead anyone in any transaction.

Kevin Savage

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Posted By: leon

It's honorable that you would come on our board and get opinions. I think if you put up large scans of the front and back then folks can make up their own mind on what to pay. I know a few other full time ebay dealers that will mention the flaws and leave the card in the holder. I would be a little careful of taking returns on cards like this one, carte blanche. The reason is that with big scans they can see what they are buying. Why would they need a return? I understand you want to make everyone happy but you could drive yourself crazy . I usually will take a return ONLY if I make a material mistake. These are auctions and not retail. On my retail site I do have a return policy with satisfaction guaranteed....though it is a short time frame, on purpose. I think if someone buys a retail card from me then they can know within a few days of receipt if they like it or not....good luck in your endeavors...You are certainly one of the good guys....best regards

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Posted By: barrysloate

Kevin- You are treating this situation professionally and I agree with two of your points: 1) a dealer can not refuse every card he feels may be slightly overgraded; 2) you clearly posted large pictures for potential bidders to make their own decision. The only exception with this card is it is not a matter of your VG-EX is my VG; in this case, the card is so overgraded that we surmised it was simply mislabelled. The fact that your consignor got hammered on other cards shouldn't have an effect on you pulling this one particular card and telling him it needs to be resubmitted. His hammered cards will be pictured and bidders can submit very high bids if they agree with the harsh grades. I don't think you will lose your consignment over this one unusual situation, unless you already know something about the consignor that might cause you to worry. You did the right thing, but in this case I think the card should have been returned to PSA.

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Posted By: Josh K.

Since I started this thread, I thought I should chime in with some info I left out. I emailed Kevin prior to starting this post and, as he noted, he answered my questions about the card honestly and straight forward. I never believed that he was trying to hide anything or pull one over on some unsuspecting buyer. The only reason I did not mention this earlier is that I never intended for this thread to be about Kevin or his business. I dont think he has done anything wrong by listing the card with full scans of the front and back. I agree that there is only so much you can do as a seller of a card like this.

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Posted By: Gilbert Maines

In my estimation, once a card gets graded, it no longer is the stand alone raw card to be evaluated based on its own merits. The evaluation of a seperate party is affixed to the card. This presentation of card + holder is what often is offered for sale.

Although it makes sense to focus on the card and put little emphasis on the opinion of the third party, in operation, much of the hobby does not do this. Actually, the price a card realizes is frequently driven primarilly by the opinion of the independent grader.

In any case, although it is often touted "buy the card, not the holder"; some people buy the package of card + holder and take pride in the package.

In this case, it appears that the grader made an error. But the package can legitimately be offered for sale, as is. This offering does not have to comprimize a seller's integrity, if he makes no attempt to defraud. I can envision a collector prefering a g card in a vg/ex holder over a vg in a vg holder. I may not agree with this viewpoint, but under the CWYWC guideline, I won't criticise it.

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Posted By: Rick

Very thoughtful of you to write and try to explain your view on this issue.

I didnt know it was a cosigment ...it does make things a little more complicated.

I seldom sell on ebay...and if i take a loss ..its just part of the hobby ...like having a boat and having to fill it up with gas.

For you its a business. Its a tough choice wether to piss off a big client or have an unhappy costumer down the road.

However ...In this hobby , reputation takes a long time to build and its very easy to lose ...so it is indeed a delicate issue.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Rick is correct that it can be a bit of a balancing act. By not wanting to offend your consignor, you put a substandard item on the marketplace. Just from the response on this thread, you can see that it can potentially backfire. I guess in the end you have to make a judgment call. If it were me, I would have told the consignor that the grade on the Lajoie was unacceptable and we would need to have it regraded. Of course, that may not have worked smoothly either. It's a tough one either way.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

Explain it to the consignor honestly; if he has any intelligence, he will understand and take it back to PSA for regrading, and appreciate your integrity. Look, you only have one shot at making a reputation with a new customer, the first shot. If you offer something for sale that is not reflective of your standards, you blow that shot--everyone sees you as that guy who sells overgraded stuff.