Why I love grading! And before you blast me, this is SGC

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Posted By: dan mckee

These were acquired in a group of strip cards and a few T206s. They came from an elderly lady. She had a shoebox full of absolutely beat up T's and decent strip cards and a few of these cards that are cut from a notebook. These are cataloged in the Krause book. These have never been reprinted and these are absolutely original. These were handled by SGC's head grader who I talked to on the phone today. He is a very nice guy and does a decent job grading. But this is why I do not like grading. I shouldn't have to tell him that these are real. I did thank him for the chuckle I got when I saw these labelled as counterfeit. Oh, and if any of you have any of these counterfeits for sale, please contact me because I will buy them.

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Posted By: anonymoushornschwaggler

..even lil' ole ladies are getting over on you..
... that's just plain sad Danny.

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Posted By: Richard Lloyd

geee Dan... I have the same conterfeits... But Mine will
cost you!!!! I wonder what the real ones are worth!! : )
I am in FULL agreement with you on grading.. It needs to change before it HURTS the hobby or what ever we are doing!!!???...
Best
DIck

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Posted By: joe brennan

Dan, What was his answer to you when you told him that they are absolutely real and they have never been re printed? Will they try to grade them again? Out

"I had the right to remain silent. I just didn't have the ability" Ron White

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Posted By: dan mckee

I believe he said he would take another look at them. I was a bit heated as I also had a D304 that I popped out of an SGC holder that he returned as trimmed. I just shouldn't have to explain that these are real, or what issue they are, or anything like that. I think the grading services should at least utilize experts part time if nothing else. The grading services are supposed to be the "experts", they are not just there to check corners and creases. I love SGC! I am not a fan of grading but SGC is my favorite. I have known Dave a very long time and Scott is a super nice and competent guy. Their process and business is set up very well and I am very comfortable sending them my cards. I am just making an "oldtimer's" point here. Dan.

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Posted By: robert a

Dan.
After seeing this and having some "pleasurable" experiences of my own, I have to rethink using any grading services in the future. They just plain don't know what the hell they're doing.
I'm tired of it.
Robert Adesso

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

what was his explanation as to why they were counterfeit? I assume he didn't give you the old "we've never seen these before, so they can't be real" answer. Even if they were uncatalogued, I would assume they would grade them unless they thought something about them looked odd or unauthentic. What did he say?

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Posted By: dan mckee

Hi Todd, he said they had the "characteristics" of forgeries whatever they are. I just laughed and told him that I can assure him they were real and that only an idiot would reprint these as they were always worthless until the "new" hobby blood has recently taken a liking to them. I personally do not think they should be cataloged as they are cut off of a childs notebook. Dan.

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Posted By: Todd Schultz

So are you going to give SGC another shot on these--I assume on their dime?

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Posted By: dan mckee

If I remember to take them to the National I will. I don't think I will have another mailing til then.

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Posted By: anonymoushornschwaggler

..could be some lil' ole ladies set up at the national.

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Posted By: Mark Evans

Dan--

Look forward to seeing you (and your dad?) at the National. Hope you make the dinner.
Appreciated your humor on ebay id thread but couldn't come up with clever comeback. Too many brain cells burned out. Mark

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Posted By: Anson

These guys are far from perfect. I submitted an autographed item to "grading company name here" and had them certify its' authenticity. It was sent back with the "unable to authenticate" tag due to a long list of things that made it fake. The sad part, the autograph was signed by the player right in front of my face.

Go figure.

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Posted By: Howie

The description of the cards in the SCD isn't too convincing about what they are and when they were made. If it's later discovered that the cards were just cut out of a book or magazine from the teen's to 30's then all SCD has to do is update their book with the new information. If SGC grades and labels these as a card issue from 1910 then what happens to cards they've put out if the description changes. Maybe SGC will grade them if you ask them to label only as W-Unc with no year associated with them.

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Posted By: dan mckee

They are from a child's notebook that was issued on or about 1910. That I am sure of no matter what book says what. The other thing I am sure of is that they are NOT counterfeit. That is the point of my thread. Dan.

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Posted By: T206Collector

Dan,

You might also want to point out to SGC the difference between Earle Combs and Jack Coombs, the latter who is featured on your card, while the former is misidentified on the SGC tag. "Colby" Jack Coombs played for the Philadelphia A's from 1906-14. Earle Combs, on the other hand, played for the Yankees from 1924-35. Actually, the person that SGC identifies on its tag (Earl Coombs -- no "e" after Earle and two "o's" between the "C" and the "M" does not exist.)

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Posted By: Lee Behrens

If I were SGC and got an issue I was unsure of, I would try to contact someone who could help me. If you can not find any viable answers just send it back with a refund stating you have no knowledge of the set and can not accurately grade it. This is the stuff that gets to be an embarassment.

Lee

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Posted By: Glen V

Where is the fine line between cards cut from a poster or notebook and an AAA graded reach cutout?

Here's a picture of some W-Unc cards before being cutout:

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Posted By: robert a

The point here is: The grading co's should not grade something if it's against their policy, but why deem the item fake if they're not familiar with it?

They acutally acknowledge it as 1910 W-UNC Strip Card and then PRETEND as if they know it is a fake.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Great scan Glen! That is where and only where this so called issue comes from. Yes! I see the label is wrong as well on Combs, must have been a bad day at my expense. Well out of 3 submissions, this is the only one I wasn't happy with. As far as an expert telling them, I told them when I dropped them off, they obviously over turned me and stated they were counterfeits. Very comical I must add.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Glen, great piece. I think the line sort of falls on pieces that are blank back and that were actually cut up at the time they issued. I don't think too many kids cutting up reach guides, but they may well have cut up their notebook covers. Although I'm not too comfortable with listing cards cut from notebook covers as cards. They weren't intended to be cut from them like on Bazooka boxes.

Jay

My place is full of valuable, worthless junk.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

But they did not state the cards were fake, they merely refused to grade them and refunded my grading fees. I asked why and they said that they weren't comfortable with the issue because the cards I submitted were uncatalogued and the set was of unclear origins. While I appreciated the caution, I challenged them because the Wagner was catalogued in the blank-backed format and the book states that the set is not completely catalogued. They SGC rep I was speaking with claimed it was not in the book, we debated it, and it turned out that he was looking at an older book than I was, which had less info and did not have the Wagner listed. He admitted their mistake, graded the cards for free and paid my mailing both ways. The Chance and Bender are still uncatalogued, BTW, as are several others that have surfaced in the last year; maybe they'll be in there next year.

Turning now to the cards in question, if they are from a notebook, guess what, they aren't W519 or W520 cards. They are something else. I couldn't find the notebook cards in the 2005 SCD book (help??) and the listings for W519 and W520 don't mention the notebook cards. Does that make them fakes? No. Does it make them not what is listed? Yes. If my Pinkerton scorecards were not in the catalogs, I'd not have expected them to grade, so I can understand their reluctance to grade something of unknown origins that is uncatalogued under the name plate of a catalogued issue. In this case, it looks like the cards are cutouts from an item that wasn't made for cutting up. Should they be treated as strip cards or should they be treated like cutouts from a poster (like the blank-backed N28 and N29 "cards" that surface periodically but were cut from the Albums)? I honestly don't know that I would have slabbed these cards given what is known about them. IMHO the graders at SGC should have figured out that the cards were not what was listed rather than returning them as fakes of what was listed, and should have refunded your money for ungradeable cards. Bring them to the National and speak to SGC in person; I'd be willing to bet that they will fix any error they made.

Adam

You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know... morons.--Blazing Saddles

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Posted By: RIchardLloyd

Hello.... Thats a GREAT cover Glen!!!

I guess in my mind I see NO difference if a card is cut from a Milk carton, candy box, soda tab popcorn or notebook... These are all "odd ball" cards from many "commerical products" that were promoting baseball and there local team.. so,
in general I like these cards and think they are highly collectable and I think they should be listed as cards!!
Best

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Posted By: Glen V

Unfortunately the cover isn't mine. It was auctioned on Ebay a few years back. I didn't bid enough, but saved the scan.

Adam, these cards are listed in the SCD under 1910 W-Unc Colorized Portraits

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Posted By: dan mckee

Glen don't feel bad, I bid and lost as wel in that auction! Adam, they are in the 2005 book back with the strip cards and cataloged as W-Unc 1910. Dan.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

The nice thing with the Pinkerton blank backs is that there are examples that were used as postcards with 1910s postmarks. Literally dated by the US Goverment.

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Posted By: Howie

I wonder if there was more than one front cover available, or the other cards were on the back cover, or if they were on stiffer pages every so often to separate the notebook into sections. Even if they weren't issued with instructions to cut, save and collect all the individual cards, they look like cards that kids would want to cut out. But then again, what about cards cut from the pages of the Allen & Ginter premium albums? They certainly have some collector value, but can you grade them? They don't have to grade to be collectible.

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Posted By: dan mckee

HEY IF IT DOESN'T GRADE, IT MUST BE WORTHLESS NOW A DAYS!
There is another cover, my friend has Walter Johnson (johnston) on his cover and his book has a thinner stock page insert in the middle with cards on it. dan.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

so SGC should have graded them if they are real.

Thanks guys, I couldn't find them to save my @$$.

Adam

I was born here, an I was raised here, and dad gum it, I am gonna die here, an no sidewindin bushwackin, hornswagglin, cracker croaker is gonna ruin my biscuit cutter--Blazing Saddles

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Posted By: Elliot

I don't see why given their own rules why they would grade "cards" cut from a notebook cover. IMO there is no difference between these and "cards" cut from a Reach catalogue, except for the date of the cut. I'm not saying that these W-unc "cards" aren't collectible, just don't see why they should be graded given the fact that they weren't designed to be cut at the time of issue like other strip cards.

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Posted By: T206Collector

They're not cards. They're cut outs. I have reach cut outs of player photos glued to the backs of some of my T206 cards that was ostensibly done around the time of issuance. That does not mean I have a card glued to the back of another card -- it means I have a card defaced by a glued on photo.

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Posted By: dan mckee

Yes I can respect that. As I have said, I do not think they should even be cataloged. I don't care about them not grading, it is the reason that is a joke. A professional grader should know the issue and should know that they are original. My point is that the grading companies can be better by hiring or part time consulting with knowledgable experts yet they don't. I personally do not think strip cards or any other hand cut cards should be graded except for "authentic". They also returned my 2 1941 Playball paper cards which have to be handcut since they were only issued on sheets. They graded the Jimmie Foxx at a show that was hand cut and acquired at the same time. Again, I have no problem with items not grading, I do expect consistency through certain issues and a realistic reason why they didn't grade. Dan.

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Posted By: Richard Lloyd

SO..with the above logic... are 1910 baseball bats for example cut outs or cards???

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Posted By: Elliot

Agree with you totally Dan. The reason they gave for not grading it is bogus. Baseball Bats would not qualify as a card...it is a cut-out IMO.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

In the fine arts, it is commonly said that there there are two things an expert should not do: call a forgery genuine and call something genuine a forgery.

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Posted By: steve mace

i also recently bought a large group of tobacco cards. there were t-206's. t-205's, t210's some e-92's and a large group of t-209 photo and first series cards.. i also recieved some t-128's contentnea indians. also in this group were what i identified as 1910 w-unc's. i went thru the same process as you in trying to get the grading companies to authenticate. psa and gai would not. i was getting ready to send to sgc until i saw your message. i had run a few on e-bay and i am getting ready to run some more starting tonight and then a few a week for the next few weeks. i really enjoyed hearing what you had to say about these, it was really informative, especially the scan of the page how they came. mine were all american league, must have been from other side of notebook. it helped explain to me why there were different sizes.( one i have is a cobb that is bigger than some). thanks again for the info. i know mine are authentic by the way that i acquired them, but it sure helped me by the conversation on this board. check link out for scan of cobb i have, it is real nice.