Old Judge "Font" Question

[Archive]

Posted By: Colt McClelland

Whenever I have two copies of a fairly scarce card in my hand, I always tend to look for some type of "variation", and I found one on a Browns Champions Caruthers card. As the scans below show, the name "Caruthers" is shown with two different font types. I have several other Browns Champions cards, and none of them use the more upright and simple font (i.e. the bottom scan with the "C" that does not have a script/curve at the top). I am just begining to collect Old Judge cards, and I know I am being hyper technical here, but is this type of font variation a "normal" thing that one would expect to see on Old Judge cards? Also, if anyone else has a Browns Champions Caruthers card and could check the font I would be curious to know what they look like. Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Can you please post full scans of each of the cards.

Thanks!

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Colt:

I have four Brown's Champs (Von Der Ahe, Comiskey, Latham and O'Neill) and they all have slanted letters like your first example.

Jay Miller might have some insight into the reason for difference on your second Caruthers.

Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Colt McClelland

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

has lettering like the top Caruthers, i.e., with serifs on the letters.

[Archive]

Posted By: anonymousdave

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe_G.

There are many "minor" variations within Old Judges in general with Brown's Champs being no exception. Here are some facts and observations on the Brown's Champs alone:

Brown's Champs are considered part of the "short numbered" cards along with King Kelly cards (w Boston) and the Hahm & McCormick cards.
They can be found with & without the number (this is a huge clue).
Notice that the cards were produced by placing a matte over the photo to frame it (arched top). Also notice that this arched matte contains both the name & number.
Although not important here, there are also variations with and without a copyright line.

Now let's put it together, again, the number falls on the same matte as the players name. This matte is certainly different between your cards, one has no number and the other does with the players name written differently (both in style and position).

Basically, the two examples you have were made at two different times (by Goodwin back in 1887) with a different matte framing Caruthers each time. I suspect the unnumbered version is a little more rare as most are numbered. The number and the script on the more common numbered cards is what most would be familiar with.

Why the variations?, one can only speculate. It is quite possible that Goodwin produced many of the Brown's Champs cards on 24 card sheets while others were mixed within mixed team sheets etc. For the most part same pose & year cards look very similar but variations come about with the highly manual process by which the cards were made over the course of the year they were produced.

Perhaps Jay Miller can add to this. I know he has many numbered and un-numbered Brown's Champs.

Hope that helps.

Joe Gonsowski

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay Miller

As usual, Joe is right on the money. I think the variation is simply a seperate printing of the card with a new mount. Since the names were handwritten on the mount it appears that two different people did the writing. As for the numbers on the cards, Brown's Champs, being part of the short numbered 1887 series, should have a number not beginning with a zero in the upper right of the card. Lew Lipset lists these numbers for Brown's Champs in his encyclopedia. I have found three of the 13 Brown's Champs to come both numbered and unnumbered (Caruthers, Nicholl and Kemler). I haven't looked that hard so there may be more.
BTW, that was a great observation, not just for a new collector of Old Judge cards but for even a seasoned veteran. Keep up the good work, there are many mysteries to solve in this set.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

there are different handwritings evident on the N174 boxers too.

[Archive]

Posted By: Kevin Cummings

Joe:

I looked at this thread again, but on a different computer and unless my eyes are playing tricks on me, although it is harder to see and might be partially obscured, Colt's second Caruthers looks like it has the numbers on it, too.

Colt:

Can you look (perhaps with a loupe) to see if the number (or maybe just part of it) is present?

Kevin

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Kevin,

Right you are. I didn't see it until closer inspection. Both have the number in the upper right.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe_G.

You could be right Kevin, the number might be present on both copies. I may have jumped the gun a bit having discussed Brown's Champs variations with Jay Miller in the past in which he shared that they can be found with and without numbers.

However, it is still apparent that Colt's two examples were prepared differently with two different individuals likely writing the script name. Perhaps what makes the number so difficult to see in the second example is the fact that it is nearly hidden in the shadow of the matte that lays on top of the image (mattes were used in 1887 to frame the images and give a uniform border within the 24 image matrix that comprised an original uncut sheet). On the second example, the matte comes much closer to the image & "Old Judge Cigarettes" banner and in doing so is nearly covering up half the number. This type of position variation (border vs image) are common.

In the spirit of talking about Brown's Champs variations, here is one with a copyright line (another uncommon variation). This one comes from Jim Clarke's online library with other examples present in Lew Lipsets 19th Century Encyclopedia (the uncut sheet).



Would love to see or hear more about Jay's missing number cards. Primarily, would like to know if there is a trend on font style with missing numbers (even though the two examples here appear to both have numbers) and so on. We know the long numbered cards (leading zero) have many examples of missing numbers. Gotta love the variations

Joe Gonsowski

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Joe,

I always look forward to your posts (and a few others) on OJs. The insight is fantastic!

Collecting this set by pose would be a lifetime undertaking. Could you imagine trying to collect this issue by every variation known? I think you'd go absolutely crazy trying to do so. Collecting every variation for one single player (that may have at least 5 poses) would be an undertaking in itself.

John - if you happen to be lurking - how many different variations of the Corcoran cards have you found? There are supposed to be two poses but I'm sure you've found so many different variations as far as logos and type/font variations are concerned. Would you care to list them?

Thanks!

Sorry to go off topic...

[Archive]

Posted By: john/z28jd

You know ive never looked at the font on the cards to see if anythings different.I'll have to check next time i can.I guess i would be the person to ask with so many cards of the same player.

Corcoran has 6 pose/variations listed in the book which i have all of,
plus i have one variation that isnt listed and another that has the Old Judge sign in a different spot than the other 2 examples i have of that particular variation(1 card its a little bigger and in the top left hand corner,the other 2 its in the right hand corner)

I'll check the fonts and get back to you when i can,and ill post scans if anythings different