PBOR.'s - Dave Bushing's magic wand!

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Plancich

PBOR is an acronym used to describe the Hillerich & Bradsby/Louisville Slugger Professional Bat Order Records. According to Global Authentication Inc., MastroNet and SCD Authentic - "A certificate of authenticity from Dave Bushing is a 'sin qua non' for anyone seeking to buy a serious bat. He has benn selected as the repository of the Louisville Slugger archives and has all the records for every bat ever made for any player of note.This information is not otherwise available."

First of all, the H&B PBOR's are exactly what the term implies - they are simply order records. Anyone who has ever played and/or watched the game of baseball knows that players use different bats and other players bats all the time. Dave Bushing and his LOA's/COA's usually always state that the bat matches all "factory records" and that this mere fact now, without question and/or doubt, places the resepective bat in the player's hands and hence it is an authentic game-used bat! This couldn't be further from the truth. Just beacause a player orders a particular model bat doesn't necessarily mean that the player used the bat!

Back in 1997 you used to be able to call H&B directly and they would tell you is a particular model bat of their's matched the factory records. I believe that practice has been stopped and you are referred to Dave Bushing for these questions. These PBOR's are simply the first step in the process of authenticating a professional model game-used bat, there are many more steps that need to be addressed before you can place the bat in the player's hands.

The following link is to an article written about a fake Ichiro bat that MastroNet tried to sell and Dave Bushing & Dan Knoll authenticated as the first bat he ever used in MLB. What's even more frightening than this bat being authenticated was the story that they completely fabricated in order to give this bat its authentic status. I don't know if Ichiro ever ordered a Louisville Slugger bat because he is the poster child" for Mizuno, it's is more likely that the bat manufacturer made the bat and sent him some samples hoping that Ichiro would like their model and then start using it in the game. The only reason that this bat was eventually pulled from the auction was because some collector had a video tape from Ichiro's first game showing that he never used a Louisville Slugger bat.Fake Ichiro game-used bat

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

Ouch.

That is a pretty damning article.

This is EXACTLY why I stick to cards and don't buy anything that is supposedly "game used."

I don't trust anyone that much.

[Archive]

Posted By: Mike

Robert, Dave is a stand up guy in my oppinion. I have only interacted with him a couple times, so I can't vouch for him personaly. Has me made mistakes? Yes. Who do you consider the authority if not Dave Bushing?

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

If all this it true, I think the point is no one can be considered an authority.

[Archive]

Posted By: Hal Lewis

I agree with DD.

If you buy ANYTHING that was supposedly "game used"...

then you are taking a BIG RISK regardless of who says it is the real thing.

[Archive]

Posted By: HW

Mr. Plancih,

I think that most will agree that all authenticators (cards, autographs, bats, jerseys, etc.) make mistakes. From your examples, Mr. Busing is obviously not an exception.

On the other hand, is he not the best option that we have? Who else offers his opinion on a broad range of sports memorabilia to a novice for a nominal fee?

If a beginner wants to buy a piece of sports memorabilia - say a game used bat - , who do you recommend as an authenticator?

How about for a jersey or autograph?

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh A

HW,
There is no point in asking Bobby boy a question, he never responds to anybody. He just keeps posting.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

it is an apparent lack of any effort to fact check before coming out with an opinion.

As far as options go, the best option is to avoid all this game used hype unless the item can be independently verified by reference to source materials, not some clown with a cozy relationship with the auctioneer who is looking to profit from a good opinion.

[Archive]

Posted By: dennis

this ichiro bat saga is truely laughable. after "authenticating" this item the authenticator should very quietly get out of the business. to call this incident a mistake is very naive to say the least.

[Archive]

Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Robert,

I don't mind you posting here, in spite of the fact that you have no intention of commenting on vintage cards in any manner whatsoever, and likely do not even collect vintage baseball cards.

In fact, as long-winded and rambling as many of your earlier posts have been, it's been quite easy to avoid reading them. I thought you would eventually just go away or maybe have the police find you naked outside of a window at Dave Bushing's house. But, here you are. Still. Still here. Posting. So congratulations on that.

But you should know that few of us here are naive enough to think that your posts are anything but blatant attacks on Dave Bushing for some slight you feel he has done to you in the past. Hell hath no fury...

And I think it's great that you found a two year old article by doing some google search to dig up some more dirt, but most of us consider the whole Ichiro bat story old news. The main reason for this is that it is literally OLD NEWS. The article in your link is from January 4th of 2002.

But thanks for so generously donating your time to selflessly policing our hobby and looking out for the common collector. Wherever there is trouble, you'll be there. Wherever there is fraud, you'll be hot on the trail. Wherever an item is misrepesented, we know you'll have our backs.

Unless it doesn't involve Dave Bushing.

Your "organization" should be called the "Justice League of Authentication" because to me, you're a superhero.

Thanks again for saving the day.

Two years after the day.

Your biggest admirer,

-Ryan

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie Vognar

the Ichiro bat fiasco. I remember a friend at the time showing me the two-page spread with the exalted words of description on them. What a --DRAG! It soon became common knowledge that Ichiro had brought a year's supply of Mizuno bats with him...

Every time I see a "game used" bat--espcially one that is supposed to have been used in a PARTICULAR game-- or ball-- from Babe Ruth or Lou Gehrig, or Wayne Tewilliger, I always think, "Yeah? How the hell would you know?"

It does seem strange that Bushing is taking all the heat. I'm sure there's plenty of blame to go around, and plenty of auction houses. If an auction house can't verify the "chain of custody"--O.K. provenance-- they just make up the little bits where their knowledge fails, and then ADVERTISE!
"Whrere is Bushy? Where is Green"? "Re-Defeat Bush" "A bird in the hand..."

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

We beat the "Ichiro bat" thing to death, right here, when it first happened. If Robert is so interested in baseball memorabilia, you would think he would read this forum...but instead, he's apparently only up for one-way conversations.

It's obvious Robert has a huge axe to grind and it could take him years to get all this baggage off his chest - my suggestion is that he hire a hypnotist to help him forget about baseball, and take up something less stressful.

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

and the only postings by Mr. Plancich are aimed at items authenticated by Mr. Bushing (and after the fact at that) then perhaps it is time for Bill to stop allowing this board to be used for the pursuit of a vendetta. If there is a legitimate public service to be offered here, then I would like to see a PROSPECTIVE post warning collectors that an item offered in a PENDING auction has authenticity issues, and explaining why. Unless I am mistaken we have not seen that to date. This particular story is years old. Who cares?

[Archive]

Posted By: hankron

.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

There have been legitimate game used bats, balls, helmets, etc. with provenance that would satisfy the most discriminating of collectors. That appears to be a small percentage of all the items sold. For the larger percentage, it may be more appropriate to clearly indicate that it is game used, but cannot be attributed to the specific player.

Bottom line is it is all best estimation, outside of the few that can be legitimately traced back to a player. The auction houses and the authenticators should share the responsibility in conveying this.

There was a Black Betsy bat auctioned about two months ago, by Vintage Authentics I believe, where they said it was a Shoeless Joe Jackson bat. Black Betsy was a style of bat as well, and you could not pay me enough to believe it was actually Shoeless Joe's bat, no matter who said it was.

I think that buyers may also confuse opinions from experts with fact. Given the best information available, it is my opinion that this is an authentic, game used, such and such, is a lot different than definitively stating that this belonged to a specific person.

While Dave Bushing is a respected authority on the subject, and according to Robert Planich, has access to factory records that no one else does, it is still a crapshoot on whether the item is real.

If you have the desire, drive, need, or whatever, and must or want to have game used equipment, just be aware that you may not be paying for what you actually get.

Although you may think that Ted Williams used all the bats that had his name on it, that show game use, for which factory and order records exist, it could be that Al Zarilla or Carroll Hardy used it once, leaving Ted to feel it was jinxed, and retire it to his locker.

[Archive]

Posted By: Judge Dred

Has anyone asked the director of Louve curators to verify that they have the real Mona Lisa on display? I wonder if it's actually a copy (with COA, of course) of the painting that was made many centuries ago.

As far a Plancich goes - this is the USA and we do have freedom of speech and expression so long as you don't mention God or wish to display some symbol of religious beliefs on public lands. Oh yeah, and don't mention the word BOMB (even jokingly) in an airport. When do you think that they'll remove the words "In God We Trust" from our currency?

I'm happy I live in the USA because if I don't want to read any of Plancich's posts then I have the right to ignore them. If I do read the posts and find them offensive then I can rebut him in written form in the same thread. If he slanders me then I can sue him. I'm sure he doesn't have anything I want because he doesn't collect this stuff so the question becomes - why sue him? Does anyone know if he has a lot of 19th century baseball material?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

At first Robert’s posts were interesting and I thought this was really going someplace. Quickly it became annoying when Robert did not ever reply to anyone.

I got curious about his posts so I inquired about Robert's relationship with Bushing and Knoll. If his posts were not already indicative of someone who has a specific agenda, which was confirmed in conversations I had. As in all cases there are two sides to every story.

I am not saying the information Robert has presented is not accurate, I would not know. I just find his lack of interaction with the board to be irritating.

I am sure there is a hobby publication where he can go to get this published. He seems to have done his homework.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

Mr. Robert Plancich your dealing with a tough audience.

An audience that obviously hasn't learned a thing.
An audience that rejects facts and learns nothing from them.
How dare you provoke their thoughts.
How dare you rekindle the Ishiro bat LIE.

Mr. Plancich don't you understand that although they b!tch and complain about the creative spin jobs done with each item of a catalog auction they actually luv the spin. .... the bigger the better.
Don't you know that the auction pimps know this, and they give the great unwashed what they want.
The pimps know their stable, and they will stablize when needed.
The great unwashed doesn't want to know that part of it.
They have satisfied themselves by believing that stabilization only occurs in sports memorabilia, and not so much in cards. ... and just un poquito in Cuban cards.

Yet it is incredible to hear that some of the unwashed don't mind a wee bit of stabilization in cards.

The mental giants don't realizes that they have given the pimps a GREEN light for legalize stabilization. .... you give the audience what they want.

Mr. Plancich some of the people here feel that their questions should be answered.
If you do that would be interesting, but you actually don't owe them nada, zilch, nothing, gotz.
The fact of the matter that you sign yourself in as ROBERT PLANCICH in caps, is enough for me.
You're not hiding anything, and you stand behind what you say.
The fact that you have spelled out all the various issues for all the readers to read in the most simplest form, is enough for me.

Simply stated.
I Don't Like Anyone Messing With My Hobby!

All others may return to the Ostrich position.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill Cornell

The Ichiro Bat got the treatment here 3 years ago: http://www.network54.com/Forum/message?forumid=153652&messageid=1010207600, which makes it very old news by VBC standards.

Let's give Dave Bushing and game-used a rest unless something new comes up.

Bill

[Archive]

Posted By: PASJD

I usually agree with much of what you have to say and enjoy the creative ways you find to say it but you are missing the point. There is no connection at all between some of us questioning whether Mr. Plancich is using this forum as a soapbox to carry on a vendetta against Mr. Bushing (and the evidence is mounting) and anyone's tolerance for shenanigans in the card or memorabilia industries. You are mixing apples and elephants. The fact of the matter is that this story is three years old and provides no new or relevant or useful information to anyone, and my saying that, with all due respect, does NOT mean that I endorse card restoration or stabilization or the promotion of bogus memorabilia -- I don't. In fact if you go back to the Mastro post I spoke out quite vehemently against what I felt was deception on their part.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe P.

I know where you're coming from, and I don't have a problem with that. .... we're on the same page.

My point is:
It's not the number of years since the Ishiro Bat CAPER.

It's the same cast of characters, ... pulling the same sh!t.

People are still buying tickets to that play.
It's a show that shouldn't be running off Broadway.

Robert Plancich is fighting them, and he's practically fighting them by himself.

It has nothing to do with sports memorabilia or sports cards.
It's a case of outright PR deception, and monopoly of same.

Let me give you a somewhat similar situation.
In 1990, pre internet as far as I was concerned.
I found myself at the Texas National after closing out a fight against a scam of an altered heavy duty card.
A fight that I won with the help of Lew Lipset, Mark Macrae and Herman Kaufman against Dr Koos.

Here I was, a collector talking to all the dealers that I knew at the National.
As a matter of fact, Mark and I tried to convince a certain dealer from the mile high city that he had a bum Magie error in his case, a card BTW that he had picked up from a dealer from Flint Mi. at the show.
To make a long story short, this collector spent more time at that National trying to educate some of the dealers at what to look for in a Dr. Koos special.
They were all interested, but they were more interested in the upcoming Kit Young bash in Hawaii than banding together to fight Dr. Koos.
That was in 1990.
If you were to look in the forum 54 search engine,
you will find threads about Danny Dupchek and Dr. Koos.

Because the dealers didn't band together to tackle Danny boy in 1990, he was still a problem to the current collectors/investors.

So you see, that's why I don't buy the time span theory.

BTW, let me be fair to Alan Rosen.
He was not one of the dealers that I tried to pass on the info on Dr. Koos.
The man is the best hyper in the business.
He put the hobby on the map.
I've never bought a card from him, because I was always able to get it cheaper somewhere else in the country.
If I had contacted him, perhaps he might not have fallen victim to the Graded Doyle Caper.

[Archive]

Posted By: Julie

You tell'm, Joe. There's a trimmed card in a PSA 8 holder that is getting more expensive as we speak...Bill, you say the Ichiro bat was raked over the coals years ago--but some who have contributed to this thread never heard about the Ichiro bat; they seemed truly interested.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan B

As someone who is new to this forum, but not new to this hobby I had never heard about the Ichiro bat fiasco. It seems to me that if you are an authenticator of game used equipment then a mistake this embarassing should NEVER happen. I personally appreciate Mr. Plancich's warnings. While he may or may not have a vendetta against Bushing (I don't know either way) he has educated me on a number of factors when it comes to authenticating game used items.

We haven't all been here for 3+ years.

Dan

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

that H&B turned over their bat records to Bushing.....I assume it's only copies of the records since they sold a Ruth order sheet at the Slugger auction here.........

[Archive]

Posted By: Bill Cornell

Bill, you say the Ichiro bat was raked over the coals years ago--but some who have contributed to this thread never heard about the Ichiro bat; they seemed truly interested.

Right. That's why I included a link to the earlier thread.

[Archive]

Posted By: DD

Does anyone know if Bushing is a lurker or member of this board? If I were him, I would not respond publicly to allegations here, but I am curious if he at least reads what is said here.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

I'll pull my head out of the sand long enough to tell you "most of us get it".

[Archive]

Posted By: MW

What was most surprising to me the first time around was not the fact that a mistake was made. That's excusable. It happens to all of us. It was that the story/auction description was "cooked" to fit that of an authentic game-used bat. As far as I'm concerned, that type of methodology is seriously flawed. The provenance should emerge in the course of researching a game-used item; it should not be invented, apart from fact, to enhance authenticity. That being said, Mastronet DID pull the item from its auction and should be commended for it.

Something else that bothered me was that the autograph and the inscription on the bat both appeared to be bogus. The original Mastronet auction description decreed that both were penned by Ichiro and yet some very basic research revealed the fact that Ichiro did not have sufficient command of the English language to have done such a thing. Finally -- and this was something that has never been addressed -- the suggestion was made that Mastronet was under time constraints and therefore, did not have a sufficient opportunity to fully research the item before it was offered as "authentic" to collectors. My question is this -- since when do time constraints have anything to do with authenticity? What if a previously unknown Babe Ruth "game-used" bat were consigned a week before a Mastronet Catalog went to press? Would we be so similarly dismissive and use time constraints as a reasonable excuse if that item were later found to be nothing more than a store model bat?

Robert's first post in this thread provides new information that I (and I assume others) were not previously aware of. If it is untrue, that's one thing, but to make the claim that his motivations are jaundiced without explaining why or to discount what he says without providing evidence to the contrary, is pointless. Those who try to dismiss Robert's statements in such a manner -- with nothing more than their own subjective feelings -- are hypocritical at best since they are doing the same thing that they accuse Robert of. I have spoken at length with independent memorabilia experts and the facts that Robert has posted check out. If someone has evidence to the contrary, let's see it.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

I'm sure Robert will be posting a response to his attackers very quickly.

Okay, that was sarcasm.

[Archive]

Posted By: warshawlaw

I hear a lot of complaining about "stabilization" and reference to it in the same way as trimming, rebacking, rebuilding, etc. Like the tax system, it seems to me that most of the people bitching about it don't quite grasp what it is.

"Stabilizing" a paper item is not the same as trimming, rebuilding, rebacking, removing ink, etc. It is placing a chemical of a certain pH that does not harm paper onto a paper item to prevent the acids in the wood pulp that made the paper from causing the paper to deteriorate as rapidly as it otherwise would. Unlike rebuilding, rebacking, removing ink, etc., it is regular and accepted part of paper art conservation, the emphasis being on conservation of what is already there. Stablization slows or stops the aging process by neutralizing the chemical responsible for the action, it does not clean up the item or remove the damage (yellowing) that is already present.

Is it alteration to the raw item? Yes. Should it be disclosed by a seller? Yes. But it is not in the same class as the other forms of alteration and IMHO if done properly should not have a deleterious effect on the item's value.

[Archive]

Posted By: HW

The term "stabilization" intrigued me too. When I spoke with phone operator the night of the auction, I asked her is she could put me on with someone who could explain "stabilization" to me. He was not able to talk at that time, but she passed along that a more suitable word may have been "de-acidification". She said that it was commom for any paper object that are sent to a conservator for any work to be "stabilized" or "de-acidified", which supposedly does not harm the paper stock. Sounded plausible to me, so I left my inquiry at that.

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott

he is using the term "stabilization" to refer to any repair work. I don't think anyone else on the board is using the term erroneously.

[Archive]

Posted By: Robert Plancich

Who then wrote that he thinks that Dave Bushing is a stand up guy. I don't know one way or another and I am not saying that he isn't a stand up guy. What bothers me the most is that he claims to want to "keep the hobby clean for generations to come." Yet I have sent him over 70 emails and he refuses to answer them, any of them. It should be noted that these emails weren't challenging and/or questioning the opinions that he had expressed, they were simply requests for information and/or substantiation of his claims of authenticity. Before the story about his DiMaggio "streak" bat was published in the New York Daily News, I had about and hour long telephone conversation with him. He assured me that he would work with me and my organization and that I should feel free to call him any time that I had a question. Well I have tried and he doesn't answer. An expert such as he should have no problems answering questions from me or anyone else, for that matter. I have asked him for Dan Knoll's email address and/or telephone number at least 10 times and he still won't answer back. He doesn't say that he won't give it to me, he just doesn't answer back. I find that a little strange. Now to me that doesn't seem like a very taxing request, so why the big mystery? I just don't get it.

That is why I would like to recommend that others contact him and see if they can get any information.