Peck & Snyder 1869 address - FINALLY !!!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

It appears that we finally have an answer to our mystery... and it is an answer that will make EVERYONE happy!! (You didn't think that I had QUIT, did you?)



As you may recall, there was a lengthy debate about whether Peck & Snyder had ONE store in 1869 or TWO stores a block apart. I even paid someone to do research at the NYPL on this, but to no avail.

The debate was important since there are two DIFFERENT backs on the 1869 Peck & Snyder Cincinnati Reds CdV ... and some discussion about whether one is "older" than the other.

Also, remember that I have an old Peck & Snyder store receipt on which the printed Peck & Snyder address of "22 Ann Street" is crossed out and the receipt has been stamped with: "Removed to 126 Nassau Street, May 1, 1870"

Thus, since this proved that the Ann Street store location CLOSED in May of 1870 ... the question was whether they MOVED to the 126 Nassau location ... or simply MERGED with another Peck & Snyder store that had already been operating there.

I BELIEVE WE NOW HAVE AN ANSWER!!!



On Page 106 of "Baseball Treasures" (the book detailing the Kashmanian Collection)... they have a photograph of a Peck & Snyder base ball score book ...

with an 1866 copyright date on the front ...

and the 126 Nassau Street address!!



Thus, it now seems that the ONLY logical explanation is that Peck & Snyder had TWO stores by 1869 ... both of them only a block apart ... one of them being advertised as the baseball store and the other as the ice skating store ... and the two stores MERGED on May 1, 1870.

Andy Baran and other owners of the 1869 Peck & Snyder cards with "126 Nassau Street" on the back can now relax and know that their cards CANNOT be proven to be "NEWER" than the "22 Ann Street" cards.

A happy ending for everyone, and now I can start another project.

Andy - This is the "buyer's premium" that I owed you!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

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Posted By: Andy Baran

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Posted By: Julie

the Anne Street can no longer have existed after that date in 1870, whatever that means.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Correct Julie.

This means that "22 Ann Street" cards are definitely pre-5/1/1870...

while "126 Nassau Street" cards can be both before and after this date.

You and Andy can thank me in person some day.

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Posted By: J Levine

but your assumptions may be wrong...how about this scenario...

Baseball CDVs given away only at Ann street store before 5/1/1870 because this was the baseball Peck & Snyder Store. After the merger/move...the cards are now stamped with the Nassau address. There is no reason to believe that the cards were given out by both stores...

-Joshua

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

Here is a picture of the score book, I have the same one with the 1866 date on the inside cover.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Josh:

Believe me, I would be fine with that scenario since I own an "Ann Street" card...

but it is hard to believe that they were printing and selling "Base Ball Score Books" from the "Nassau Street" address for years prior to 1869 but that they did NOT hand out baseball cards from that location.

Again, all we have done is "leave the door open" ... as opposed to "closing the door altogether."

In other words, if we had found an article in the May 1, 1870 New York Times (I looked for one) that said: "Grand Opening of NEW store at 126 Nassau Street!" ... then it would have ruled OUT the chance of that store having been open in 1869.

Instead, we have ruled it IN.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Rhett:

Where have you been man?!

You could have saved me dozens of hours of research and hundreds of dollars by posting that ONE photo several months ago!!!

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Posted By: Scott

It has been there for over a year.

http://www.homestead.com/runscott/Publications.html>

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

SCOTT!!

I went to your site SEVERAL times through all of my Google searches FOR "Peck & Snyder"...

but when I hit the link for the "cover" of the scorebook, it brought up the cloth outside cover.

It NEVER dawned on me that what LOOKS like the green paper "cover" is really "Page 1"... so I never clicked on that link ... until NOW.

Doh!

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

And Scott..

you call it an 1878 score book on your web site, so that threw me off as well.

I guess you meant that it was a score book that was printed in 1866... but used to score a game that was PLAYED in 1878???

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Posted By: Scott

Most sellers of old score-books use the copyright dates when advertising on ebay. I'm guessing this one was probably printed fairly close to when the games were scored, in 1878. Advertising this as an 1866 scorebook would be akin to advertising a 1930's glove with a 1905 patent date as a "1905 glove" (which is frequently done....on ebay )

Perhaps I should have advertised it based on the age of the tree that the paper was made from, or the carbon molecules used to create the ink used to print it.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Well ... you could have MENTIONED the copyright date.

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Posted By: Scott

I remember the discussions about the Peck & Snyder address, but it never crossed my mind to check that scorebook.

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

BY the way... Scott's point TOTALLY obliterates all of my conclusions!

In other words ... just because the score books were COPYWRITED in 1866 ...

does NOT mean that they were PRINTED in 1866.

So, the two score books that we have seen with the 1866 copywrite date on them may very have been printed AFTER 1869 ...

which would explain why they have the 126 Nassau Street address.



OK, I officially give up.

Someone else can take up this challenge now.

I am back to thinking that the "22 Ann Street" store was BEFORE the "126 Nassau Store."

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Posted By: Rhett Yeakley

While the score book may very well have been printed near 1878 when the book is scored, there is no concrete evidence that this is indeed the case. This book could have been in a box since 1866 in the back of the store and then sold in the mid-1870's for all we know. Don't give up on your theory based on this beacuse there is no concrete proof that what Scott is saying is in fact actually true.
-Rhett

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

Rhett, I know this is confusing...

but I am actually hoping that my own theory was WRONG.

If the "22 Ann Street" cards (like mine) are OLDER than the "126 Nassau Street" cards (like Andy's)... then I would benefit from this fact.

I was just being candid and disclosing what I thought was a new "fact" today...

but Scott made a valid point about the copywrite date having nothing to do with the date on which the book was printed.

In fact ... the fact that his book was used in 1878 does lend some credence to the theory that the book was printed about that time as well.

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Posted By: J Levine

Umm...if it is coprighted (copywrited) with a date then somewhere there should be a record of when it was printed and how many. Library of Congress maybe? Patent Office? If someone was really obsessing about it they could make a check there. Also, I think that the theory that the scorebooks were purchased and held onto unrealistic. It is more likely that the store ordered a large printing (did they print them themselves?) in 1866 and just sold them for the next 20 years or so. I love this mystery.
Hal, I see what you were saying about leaving the door open.

-Joshua

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Posted By: Hal Lewis

ALSO:

The 1866 patent was to "ANDREW PECK"...

NOT to "Peck & Snyder"...

which is consistent with what we learned previously about Andrew Peck having his own business in the early to mid 1860's BEFORE teaming up with SNYDER.

This makes me even more positive that the 1866 patent language on the front of the scorebooks was NOT indicative of when they were printed...

but ONLY indicative of when PECK got the trademark.

In other words ... I am sure that they printed these score books for decades AFTER 1866 with that same language on the front.

Oh well.


I guess what we NEED to find is a SIMILAR scorebook in which an 1868 baseball game was SCORED, so that we can KNOW that the book was printed BEFORE 1869...

and then see what ADDRESS is on THAT score book's cover.