19th century unissued proofs

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Posted By: david 

i am not sure where tik gets his inventory from but he has some amazing cards. the two unissued cabinet proofs that he has on ebay now are great pieces. has anyone seen other unissued proofs of cards that might have been.

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Posted By: Hankron

Excluding the Old Judge stuff, proofs for 19th century cards are almost non-existent (as far as I know). Below is a picture of the original art (not a proof) for the M101-1 Sporting News Suppliment Ned Hanlon. I beleive this is the earliest known original art for a catalogued item.

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Posted By: Hankron

I forgot to mention that, though they are checklisted with the cards in SCD and Beckett, a handful of the 1800s Kalamazoo Bats team cards are likely proofs or prototypes (or whatever you want to call them) for not-issued cards.

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Posted By: Hankron

To be entirely honest, I would like to examine some of these recent-on-the-market proofs in person. I'm not saying they aren't real, just that I'd like to see one in person.

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Posted By: JC

Are you speaking about the ones TIK has on Ebay?

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Posted By: Julie

on Terry Knouse SR's table--tik's Pa. The 19th century proofs look vaguely familiar--may have seen them there as well.
The 1886-88 scorecard looks exactlky like the picture in the Standard Catalogue 2004--and very much like my 1888 "pamphlet," which consists only of the card part of pamphlet--they're all of Baltimore players.

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Posted By: Hankron

In the areas that I specialize, the only way I can give a legitimate opinion as to whether something is authentic is by seeing it in person. There are a wide variety of intriguing auction items that I would request to see in person, not because I think they are fakes, but because I don't know that they are authentic (after all, I haven't seen them in person). It should be exected that things that are slightly abnormal or true ones-of-a-kind will pique my interest the most.

In short, am I saying anything is fake? No ... Is such-and-such authentic? I don't know, I've never seen it in person.

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Posted By: Hankron

Concerning TIK's items, obviously his (good) reputation proceeds him by a mile, so it should not be interpreted that I am in any way disparaging his auctions.

While they generally do a fine job, it is my firsthand experience that even some of the top auction houses do make the occasional substantial error with photographs ('Well, almost the right century'). That's why when these proofs pop up on the market-- some stranger than others--, I say "I sure would like to a few of these these in person."

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Posted By: Julie

David: "tik" is Terry Knouse's son (also named T.K.).
Terry Senior doesn't do auctions, I believe; his e-mail address is (I think)tik&tik@epix.com.

..but he doesn't do e-mails, either!

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

Note to self: Dont mention tik unless i know their entire life story first.

I hope youre ashamed of yourself David!


Julie since you know the Knousses so well,maybe you could get them to answer one of my emails.Never had so much trouble trying to buy something off someone.

Thanks,your friend,John

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Posted By: Hankron

I always find it kind of funny when I say something to the effect of "It should in no way be interpreted that I am trying to disparaging so-and-so" that people will interpret that to mean that I am trying to disparage so-and-so.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

Note to self: John doesn't appear to like Julie. Julie started collecting cards when John was still getting his diaper changed. John is still a baby and needs to grow up and shut up.

Kenny Cole

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

Good for you Kenny Cole!!

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Posted By: Hankron

Here's the beginning and the end of my thoughts on these photographic proofs one sees in a variety of places and forms.

Firstly, one sees those Old Judge cabinet proofs. They are a lot like the regular N173 cabinets except they were made by local non-Old Judge studios (Kansas City, etc). These often (not always) have the overprints or embossments of Goodwin & Co. (Assuming they aren't Dr. Bond xerox reprints from the MastroNet online catalog), these appear to be perfectly legitimate and it would be cool to own one.

My problem (admitedly from afar) is that I occasionally see these strange ones being offered with physical qualities incongrous to the period. This includes unorthadox sizes (there was no photographic enlarging then, so it wasn't a snap for a photographer to change the sizes), and sellers advertising them as being on 'extra thick paper.' This is only compounded by the fact that some Old Judge negatives are known to exist (I know I bid on them and lost by a few thousand!). For a few of the mounted ones I have seen, the mount is 'interesting' In some cases the mount looks old, but perhaps not old enough (One of the best ways to date a cabinet card is by it's shape, color, definition, etc).

As illustrated by the fact that I said I beleive that said Old Judge Cabinet proofs are legit, I am in no way saying that that all or even most proofs are fishy. But, from the admitedly limited vantage point of my computer screen, some appear 'different' (Whenever my prim and proper aunt would see something distastefully bizarre she would politely say, "That's different.")

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Posted By: Hankron

Now Elliot can delete the whole 'distastefully bizarre
' thread and it can we can forget it ever existed.

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Posted By: Kenny Cole

.........

You're welcome.............. Not a problem ................... Have a great holiday ................

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

I hope you and Julie and everyone else has a happy holiday!! hope everyone reaches their collecting goals in 2004! I know im trying to set mine,and stick to it,but it will be tough,ive already thought about buying cards that i was going to hold off on purchasing.

Im sure there will be a thread about new years resolutions like there has been the last couple years,so i wont go into detail here.

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Posted By: Julie

(I almost put it in my original post, but thought it might be construed as being unkind).

T.K. IS COMPUTER ILLITERATE, as he is the first to admit. If you HAVE to e-mail him something (which I did once) his wife goes to the computer and gets it for him.
T.K. has sold me quite a few (to me, quite a few anyway) very nice cards, but I don't know that he would call me a "friend." Maybe "valued customer and good acquaintance).

Phnes: (toll free) 800-308--3407
570-379-2566
570-441-3558 (I think this one is attached to his drowned cell phone--if he says in message "I'm away from my cell phone, or don't have it turned on"--leave message at one of other two numbers).
e-mail: tik@epix.net

About 1/3 of the time, I don't have to leave a message, because he's home.

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Posted By: John(z28jd)

I tried the emails addresses for both of them and then tried the toll-free number but never got an answer to any messages. Probably my problem was i just wanted one old judge that he may or may not still have.I saw it at the National show and then forgot about it till recently.My best bet might just be,save up lots of money and attack his table at the march fort washington show

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Posted By: Julie

Then I spoke to him in --phone--, asked him for a card (which I since got elsewhere), and he said he was tring to arrange a trade for it, and he'd let me know either way. Since then, nothing. He goes to lots of the Philiadelphia shows, which doesn't help me much!

Maybe I'll try again, and see if he has an OJ Griffeth...