Time to fight back and stop being ripped off

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Posted By: warshawlaw 

I don't understand sellers who cheat their customers. Why bother, especially over the (relatively) small value items we deal with (Leon excepted, of course, from the value limitations, since we all know his cards stay in the Presidential Suite when he visits the National).

I have another one brewing (must be my week). I purchased a 19th century card online. Seller had good feedback and a nice track record. The "card" is a blatant forgery. It is not even a card, it is two copies (a front and a back) on heavy paper stock stuck together with glue. The edges on the two copies don't even match up--whoever created this item did a crappy job--must have cut them out independently and did not even bother to recut them after gluing. The scan was poor quality but I relied on the seller's good and large feedback. I sent the seller the above information this a.m. with the following:

"While I am of the opinion that anyone with even a little experience would know that this item is a fake, I see that you have good feedback and are an established ebay seller, so I will give you the benefit of the doubt on this item. I would like my money back. Please refund to my Paypal account. I will be sending the item back via certified mail with return receipt requested once you confirm that a refund will be made. Please note that if I do not hear from you by 5:00 p.m. EST on Wednesday, I will report the matter to the eBay and Paypal fraud investigation units, will post negative feedback for you, will email all of the other boxing card collectors I know with the details of this transaction and a warning about your auctions, and will refer the matter to the postal inspector and state attorney generals office for your state as a mail and wire fraud."

If the seller steps up and makes amends, I will publicly praise him here. If the seller does not, I will post his information for everyone to have, will make good on my threat to email the details to everyone I know who collects stuff that this guy sells, and will make scans of the $40+ piece of scrap paper available for anyone who wants to see it, to back up my story.

There is way too much Wild West stuff going on right now. I think we need to create a code of conduct that will bind members of this Board and that we also need to band together for concerted efforts against the evildoers, like a consumers union. The BRSZ thing is a good start; several people have emailed ebay to complain about this shill bidding stuff. Between the people here and the people we know, I bet we could readily assemble a big coalition of consumers against fraud. Imagine if the shill sellers and scam artists (and their willing accomplice ebay) received hundreds of complaints at a time about particular parasites. . . they might pay attention to that many pissed off voters (in order to head off appeals to legislators). This might, just might, result in some positive change. Any ideas or feelings on it?

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't agree with your complaint technique. I think that the way to do it is to say what happened and explain what you would like.

If the seller says "no", you escalate.

If the seller says "yes", the situation is resolved.

If you really are giving him the benefit of the doubt, you don't need to make your threats up front.

bruce

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

I've got to agree with Bruce here. If the seller does have solid feedback you really should give them the benefit of the doubt before you threaten to do a whole bunch of other stuff. If, after reading your initial polite email, the seller refuses to comply, then you can always let them know what's in store.

A similar thing happened to me about two years ago with an N300 Mayo. The second I opened the package I knew it was a repro and was bummed, figuring I'd have a long fight to see my $130 again. However, I emailed the seller with my concerns and presto - full refund, no problems.

This has happened to me once on the selling end as well, when I sold someone a 1956 Topps Jackie Robinson that he sent to PSA - they said it was trimmed. He sent me a nice email, I refunded his money (I opted to keep the card... didn't want to sell it as trimmed only to have someone else sell it as legit).

Adam, I think that you may have let your recent experience with the wacko have too much impact on that email. Just one man's opinion...

Jeff

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Posted By: MW

Jeff & Bruce --

Absolutely wrong. I don't agree with either one of you. Warshawlaw has the right idea. If a seller on eBay has a high rating with few or no negatives, it is HIS duty to make sure what he's selling is legit. Selling reprinted cards as originals reflects one of two persuasions -- a thief or a vintage card ignoramus. If the latter is the case, he should consult with someone who knows, THEN list the item on eBay.

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Posted By: MW

Threatening negative feedback is not a good idea. EBay strongly discourages this type of behavior, and rightly so -- feedback "blackmail" or extortion is also listed by Safeharbor as a legitimate reason to have negative feedback removed. I would rethink this part of your strategy.

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

Gee, I didn't know that an opinion could be "wrong".

MW, the only point that I'm trying to make is that mistakes happen. They happen in every business. What is important is making efforts to minimize them and to correct them when they do happen.

My "wrong" opinion was simply based on my view of the scenario described by Adam. I was in no way stating that his approach was "wrong", only that I felt there might be a better way to resolve the problem.

Jeff

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Posted By: MW

Jeff --

I'm sorry but I certainly do not have much sympathy for experienced eBay sellers who list reprinted cards and act as if they don't know the difference.

Also, your point about your post only reflecting your "opinion" is a silly argument. Nearly everything that EVERYONE posts is his/her opinion. Does that mean that we can never disagree with someone because he/she is only expressing his/her opinion? Of course not! That's why we're all using this forum. Imagine an expert witness in court who testifies and then claims that his statements can't be regarded as wrong because they were only his "opinion."

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Posted By: warshawlaw

feedback blackmail is "if you don't give me good feedback I will give you bad feedback." What I have stated I will do is precisely what ebay allegedly wants you to do, which is attempt to resolve problems up front informally before using feedback, but make clear that you will use the feedback mechanism to deliver a truthful negative report to ebay users if there is a problem.

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Posted By: Jeff Obermeyer

This will be my last comment on this issue... I don't want to bore you all with some semantic debate by myself and MW.

Michael - I've got nothing against you or your opinion, and we can certainly discuss it via email if you like (although I'm sure it won't result in either of us changing their opinions).

The point I was trying to make is this - I felt that Adam should have handled the situation differently. He was NOT wrong to handle it as he did. I was just pointing out that there may have been another approach.

My opinion was not a statement of fact. I respect your right to disagree with my opinion, but I don't really feal that it is fair to call it "wrong". This was not a matter of law, or some historical fact... it was simply my view of the interaction between two people.

I apologize to any of you who have found this thread boring or frustrating, and I would also apologize to the members of the board (including MW) if my statements were somehow ambiguous or accusing. It wasn't my intent to open a huge can of worms...

Jeff

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Posted By: MW

I think Adam's idea is a very good one. Forming a consumer union which endorses a specified code of conduct is something this hobby requires. The proliferation of fake, forged and reprinted crap -- especially on the Internet -- clearly warrants some type of review or regulation.

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Posted By: MW

Feedback extortion as defined by eBay/Safeharbor:

Demanding any action of a fellow user that he or she is not required to do, at the threat of leaving negative feedback. ("Even though it didn't reach reserve, sell it to me for my bid or..."; "Pay me $100.00 or I will..."; "Sell me all of the Dutch items or I will get all of my friends to...")

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Posted By: warshawlaw

While you definitely get more flies with sugar than vinegar, when there's a pile of dog poop there already, there are enough flies around as it is.

It is not up to me or to any buyer to be sweet to someone who has sold a blatant forgery. This is not a close call where the card is a real card that may have been trimmed ever so slightly or is a card that fooled PSA (fake Ruth rookie) or SGC (fake Doyle T206). This is a crude forgery readily detectable on handling the card but obscured just enough by ebay's crappy scamming, er, scanning system to get past four experienced card collectors on the net, three of whom I outbid. That's why I relied on this seller's reputation which had a feedback well into the thousands, a power seller rating and only a handful of negatives (8 of 'em in thousands of transactions). The package in fact came from a card store, not a home. That kind of seller clearly should know better, and is therefore either fraudulent or inattentive. If the former, nice ain't gonna cut it; if the latter, a scream rather than a whisper will draw a lot faster response. Actually, I thought I was being nice: Had it not been a "professional" seller, I would already have submitted the Paypal and eBay reports and would be running down the postal inspector and AG offices as we speak.

If I sold anyone dreck lik this, I would expect to have my head handed to me by the buyer, but maybe I'm a bit too street-hardened; years of suing real estate frauds and faithless insurers will do that to you. You know what they say: the difference between a porcupine and two lawyers in a Porsche is that the porcupine has the pricks on the outside.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

I don't give a damn what an out of context ebay quotation says: A seller has to make good on fraudulent transactions under the consumer protection laws in every state. If following the law is not something that a seller has to do, then ebay rules are "a ass".

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Posted By: MW

Adam --

I'm agreeing with you, but I don't agree with the use of feedback extortion. For eBay to ignore this type of behavior would literally open the floodgates for feedback bombing -- the same situation that existed before feedback was required to be transaction-related.

Nothing was taken out of context. Here's the link to Safeharbor rules/violations:

http://pages.ebay.com/help/community/investigates.html

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I don't understand MW's reaction. Someone sends you garbage. How do you deal with this?

1) Tell him you want a refund, and in the same email threaten to blast him if you don't get it.

2) Tell him you want a refund, and if he says no, threaten to blast him in a follow-up email.

Neither one of these involve eating the bad card. Neither one of them has anything to do with whether the seller "should" be selling bad material.

It's just a matter of how to get what you want while keeping things civil. I argue that the second technique is better.

bruce

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Posted By: Bruce Moreland

I still don't see why you think that:

"The card is a fake. Please send me a refund."

... is inferior to ...

"The card is a fake. Please send me a refund. If you don't send me a refund, I'll come down on you so hard you'll wish you were dead."

If the seller is a good seller, the first one will get the point across as well as the second. The guy's high feedback rating should convince you that the first is all that's necessary, rather than make you feel somehow more justified in sending the second.

And if you send the first, and he does tell you to pound sand, you'll know, and everyone who reads through the emails will know, that you are an innocent customer who kept his head, and the seller is the one who is whacked.

Trying not to go berserk is an eBay convention that's worth following.

bruce

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Posted By: leon

First of all Adam, I don't keep my cards in a safe when at the Nationals. Last year they were on my back in my 5 year old's napsack. I think I was pretty cool (in a dorky way) having them in a preschoolers bag. Me, a 40 year old, balding guy, cruising around with some relatively expensive cards on his back.....showing them to whomever would look Back to the subject. I will agree with the other folks that I would probably not get to the point of threatening before I asked politely first. Nothing good can come out of it. It seems that almost everyday I am about to blast someone and then I rethink it and don't do it. So far 100% of the time I am glad I did not do it...after looking back on it. Same story happened to me with a Verkman card. I got a detailed description, over the phone, of the card from one of his workers. Satisfied with the card I said I would take it. I got the card and almost fell out of my chair when I saw it. I looked at the bottom of it and got seasick it was so trimmed. THERE IS NO POSSIBLE WAY ANY INTELLIGENT HOBBYIST COULD HAVE THOUGHT OTHERWISE. NO WAY !! It was that bad. I called them and they said "hang on a second"....they pulled the rest of the cards from that lot (I believe bought a few Lipset auctions ago and advertised as trimmed) and said they were ALL trimmed. But the point here is that I asked politely and got my money back with no hassle. Now everytime I get one of their catalogues I look through it and immediatley throw it away......good luck on this one Adam.....I am not totally disagreeing with what you did but might have tried the softer hand first.......bestest friggin ( @tbob) regards (@leon)

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...didn't get me anywhere;however, I agree that it's the way to go. I have a quick trigger, but I do START OFF polite.

I can see where Adam would still be upset after dealing with the previous lunatic - I'm still upset and I didn't lose any money. I haven't heard from him lately, so possibly he's back in the asylum or got his meds refreshed. In any case, my evil side is pushing me to send him another email.




--------------------------------------------
no disclaimer - temporarily taking responsibility for my actions

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Posted By: MW

OK. I agree with what Bruce is saying -- a polite approach might work best in this situation; but if the guy's a crook and doesn't think twice about passing off reprinted cards as originals, is he really going to care? I don't think he will. I'm very much for acting civil with respect to eBay "situations" like this one, but at the same time, I can really understand what Adam is saying. In fact, let me ask the following question:

Does anyone think that this guy's actions should be reported to eBay, Paypal and other investigation units, regardless of whether he issues a timely refund? I sure think so. Here's why -- eventually, if this sort of behavior is left unchecked, hobbyists who lack knowledge about vintage issues will be defrauded. If this seller can get away with this type of behavior once (e.g., libertyforall), then he'll continue to sell this crap.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

...I would like to see clear scans of the card, both front and back.

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Posted By: leon

unless it was an honest mistake by the seller....

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Posted By: MW

Leon & Scott --

But that's EXACTLY my point. Whose responsibility is it to make sure that the item being sold is authentic? Should the seller or the buyer be held accountable? Recently, I've bought several items on eBay that I KNOW where either altered or falsely advertised by well-known, knowledgeable dealers. Eventually, someone has to take responsibility. I'm sorry, but claims of ignorance are not a proper substitute for 30 minutes of research or an ethical business approach.

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Posted By: scott (runscott)

We expect certain levels of expertise out of sellers, but there are sellers with great feedback who are ignorant about some of the items they sell. I recently saw an item on ebay that was a blatant forgery, being sold by someone I know - he did say in his description that he wasn't sure what it was. So the question is "should he have known?". Heck, I don't know. The only reason I knew it was fake was because I had seen similar fakes on ebay before, sold by known forgers, but this particular item was not something the seller normally handled.

I just purchased a wonderful cabinet forgery for $30. I couldn't tell it was fake from the scan, and I feel certain the seller couldn't either. But as David Rudd frequently tells us - get out the 30x and give it a good look. So I did, and it was fake. It even had the players' names written on the back with a cartridge ink pen and even SMELLS old! The giveaway was that the ink was not at all faded and the picture, probably from an old baseball guide, had been "decopauged" onto a very old piece of board - probably real vintage. I didn't even tell the seller - I just laughed and moved on. Of course, if I had paid a large amount I would have politely asked for a refund.

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Posted By: MW

Scott --

I don't think it would hurt some eBay sellers to do the same research you just did before they decide to sell "questionable" items.

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Posted By: leon

How can someone take responsibility on the front end of an honest mistake? If they did it wouldn't be a mistake because they would have caught it....Before I did a little research on the Kendig card, in the other thread, I posted my thoughts on it. If I would have done the little bit of other research first I would not have posted that I made a mistake afterwards. Golly, can a guy even make a an honest mistake? In the few auctions on ebay where I have sold things I tell folks that I don't take returns "unless I make a material mistake".....hence giving myself an out if I happen to be human best regards....BTW, we can leg wrestle at the Nationals to see who is right on this issue ....after a few cold ones...

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Posted By: MW

Leon --

I hear what you are saying, but speculating on the authenticity of something and listing a reprinted item on eBay are two completely different things.

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Posted By: leon

I agree with you.....and BTW, leg wrestling is when the 2 people get on their backs on the ground, interlock one of each of their legs, and try to pull the other over.....kind of like arm wrestling with legs...sorry folks....this was a very important explanation as you will see if you go to the Nationals and see 2 middle aged guys flopping around on the floor....you will then know what Michael and I are doing ......regards all

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The seller, benny@netusa1.net, responded and refunded my $$, with apologies for not reviewing the item before selling it:

"Hi - I apologize for the problems with the card. I had a small boxing collection on consignment and admit boxing cards are not my specialty as I deal mainly in paper sports items such as programs, yearbooks, tickets etc. I should have spent more time looking at that card. I will gladly refund your paypal account on Tuesday. You can just send back with a delivery confirmation or insurance as there is no need to incur the added expense or trouble of certified. As I hope you can see from my feedback, this would not be an intentional act."

Looks like we have an honest one in the eBay morass.

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Posted By: Mike Williams

it was handled professionally! Giving this seller the benefit of the doubt was the right thing to do.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

The card never arrived; looks like the roach had it returned (I checked the USPS delivery confirmation slip he emailed to Scott) to Ohio.

Paypal allegedly is reversing the transaction in part; I will be out the actual postage bozo allegedly spent. Which I could live with were it not for the fact that Sphincter-Boy told me he was canceling the auction then sent the card anyway. I say allegedly being reversed because the status is "pending"--on a credit card charge, it should be done and done after a week, don't you think? Anyhow, the CC bill came in today and if I don't get the paypal bucks back before it is due, I will dispute the charge and let the titans of credit fight it out.

If I get out of this only down the postage, I will consider myself lucky.

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Posted By: warshawlaw

was meant to update on the situation with that jackass threatmaker, not with the N184 seller, who is a totally different person and obviously a stand-up guy