Auction Scans/Descriptions Expectation vs Reality

[zsk]

More of a newbie topic as I get back into collecting…

I found a past thread that detailed horror stories from prominent auction houses that did not display accurate scans which resulted in some surprised customers.

Feeling a little leery about a current auction I’m monitoring, I decided to contact the AH because they do not list a description for low graded cards. I was surprised to hear that “Unfortunately, we do not provide descriptions of wrinkles or creases for graded items, as these are typically assessed based on their overall grade and condition.”

Is this common practice and how do you navigate this when purchasing? I’m assuming there’s almost no recourse if your card doesn’t “match” the scan, so do you even bother bidding?

[parkplace33]

Poor form or laziness by that ah. I would steer clear of that card (unless you are fine with the grade/ perceived scans).

[BRoberts]

If that is the AH's policy/response, I'd avoid them, period. Because if they're that lazy and clueless to not provide a basic service like describing an item, then you can bet they cut corners and fall short in areas you're not even aware of at the moment.

[Snapolit1]

Funny thread ….. if this AH turned out to be one of the two or three chosen few that are worshipped, there would immediately be 5 follow up posts defending their response as eminently reasonable and suggesting to the OP that he really ought to better educate himself.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Funny thread ….. if this AH turned out to be one of the two or three chosen few that are worshipped, there would immediately be 5 follow up posts defending their response as eminently reasonable and suggesting to the OP that he really ought to better educate himself.

Of course.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Of course.

When people I like do it, it's probably because they have a good reason!

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

When people I like do it, it's probably because they have a good reason!

Circle up the wagons!!

[Lorewalker]

Originally Posted by Snapolit1

Funny thread ….. if this AH turned out to be one of the two or three chosen few that are worshipped, there would immediately be 5 follow up posts defending their response as eminently reasonable and suggesting to the OP that he really ought to better educate himself.

Indeed. Some AH can do no wrong no matter how wrong they are. The defenders on this board will not tolerate the honest criticism.

[Balticfox]

I don't understand. Why would anyone, other than the owner(s), feel compelled to rush to the defence of any auction house?

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

I don't understand. Why would anyone, other than the owner(s), feel compelled to rush to the defence of any auction house?

Because they want the auction house to be their friend. Or, to be fair, they may genuinely have a good opinion of the business and or be friendly with the owner. To a great degree this is or behaves like a small hobby where lots of people know each other at different levels.

[Kevlo17]

So…which one was it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Balticfox]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

Because they want the auction house to be their friend. Or, to be fair, they may genuinely have a good opinion of the business and or be friendly with the owner. To a great degree this is or behaves like a small hobby where lots of people know each other at different levels.

Yeah, I suppose. My own relationship with auction houses is strictly arm's length. I'm not really "friendly" with any.

[zsk]

Originally Posted by Kevlo17

So…which one was it?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Haha I knew there might be feelings about AHs so I refrained but it was Goldin.
As a well know auction I thought a simple description or even a one line reply would be standard but I guess not.

Admittedly I’m probably a little more conservative as an amateur/low grade collector hunting for the best eye appeal.

[Stampsfan]

Originally Posted by zsk

Haha I knew there might be feelings about AHs so I refrained but it was Goldin.
As a well know auction I thought a simple description or even a one line reply would be standard but I guess not.

Admittedly I’m probably a little more conservative as an amateur/low grade collector hunting for the best eye appeal.

You have every right to ask the question.

[Johnny630]

The bottom line for many consigners and future consigners is how much money an auction house can make for them on said card. Scans they could care less they just want the biggest check possible so they kiss their ring turn a blind eye to certain behaviors, etc. because they think they’re gonna need them sometime down the road for their stuff when they sell. They are just playing the long game because it’s not about the cards it’s how much money they're gonna want the house to bring for them down the road utilizing their platform.
When there is money involved and big money involved, many things are tied in as part of the deal. Just keep your head down and keep moving. It’s just the way it is. It’s all about the most money possible.

[cubman1941]

Originally Posted by zsk

More of a newbie topic as I get back into collecting…

I found a past thread that detailed horror stories from prominent auction houses that did not display accurate scans which resulted in some surprised customers.

Feeling a little leery about a current auction I’m monitoring, I decided to contact the AH because they do not list a description for low graded cards. I was surprised to hear that “Unfortunately, we do not provide descriptions of wrinkles or creases for graded items, as these are typically assessed based on their overall grade and condition.”

Is this common practice and how do you navigate this when purchasing? I’m assuming there’s almost no recourse if your card doesn’t “match” the scan, so do you even bother bidding?

I do not disagree with anything said but, if it is a low-graded card, maybe a 2 or 3, wouldn't one expect to have maybe a wrinkle or crease? For example, I sent a 57 Topps Campy to be graded and got a PSA 1.5 FR - I was really surprised and still am, but when I looked closely it has a surface wrinkle and I guess this is why. Anyway, one should not expect a low-graded card not to have problems.

[tjisonline]

If AHs started to include side angled pics of the front and back, we would see far less realized prices of most PSA & SGC 1s to 4s.

[GeoPoto]

Since this thread seems to be struggling to find a horse to beat to death all over again, I'll jump in to say I think the AH's response is completely reasonable for a card that is expected to close under $100. If the card expected to sell for five figures, I would expect a more nuanced response from the AH. In between those extremes, past history with the AH would probably play a roll.

As the AH response implies, they can't afford to get between the bidder and the grading, which has already weighed the strengths and weaknesses of the card to arrive at the assigned grade. Whether you wind up agreeing with the grader or not is not something the AH can spend a lot of time discussing with you over an inexpensive card.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by zsk

Haha I knew there might be feelings about AHs so I refrained but it was Goldin.
As a well know auction I thought a simple description or even a one line reply would be standard but I guess not.

Admittedly I’m probably a little more conservative as an amateur/low grade collector hunting for the best eye appeal.

Hi Zach
It's always ok to talk about a company or person but did you happen to read this near the the top of every page, in bold print?

If you write anything concerning a person or company your full name needs to be in your post or obtainable from it.

.

[Rhotchkiss]

I dont mind Goldin's scans -- In fact, I think they are very good. I have seen the operation in person and its very high-tech and impressive. That said, I do dislike -- on Goldin and other AHs -- that you can only zoom so much within the platform. Heritage lets you zoom in super close. Goldin (and other AHs) stops the ability to zoom any further at a certain point; that said, you can zoom much further on your own device and/or take a screen shot and zoom that further, and the images are really clear so the extra zoom does not distort things.

[Fred]

Great content in this thread, great candor. So far, no AH names mentioned, so no apologist posts.

[Leon]

Originally Posted by Fred

Great content in this thread, great candor. So far, no AH names mentioned, so no apologist posts.

Really? Reading comprehension getting a bit FUZZY, Fred? See post at 1212am....
.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yeah, I suppose. My own relationship with auction houses is strictly arm's length. I'm not really "friendly" with any.

That doesn't surprise me.

Kidding aside, pretty much the same for me.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Balticfox

Yeah, I suppose. My own relationship with auction houses is strictly arm's length. I'm not really "friendly" with any.

I think there’s an element where as collectors, we can grow fond of our favorite AH. Maybe they’ve been flexible with us on some purchases. Maybe they’ve cut us a deal on some selling costs. Or maybe we just have a natural affinity for the people who are running the show, and we like how they conduct themselves within the hobby.

And sometimes when a group we like is attacked, then it’s common to have a bit of a defense mechanism kick in, where we feel the need to defend their actions and character. Particularly if we feel the attack is maybe unfair, or doesn’t really disclose the full story. Not all that surprising for humans to experience such an emotional response under those circumstances. And emotional reactions have been known to occur around here from time to time.

[Snowman]

Below a certain dollar threshold, I can certainly see it not being worth an AH's time to go pulling low-grade cards to provide descriptions for bidders or to write up a description for the listings. What that threshold should be is more debatable though. Less than $100? Probalby not worth their time. $1k+ cards though? If that's still not worth their time, then they probably shouldn't be worth your time either.

Memory Lane, for example, provides false descriptions and intentionally hides creases. Then they bitch at you over the phone when you call to complain about receiving a $25k+ card with large hidden creases despite the listing clearly stating that the card was absent of such flaws. Perhaps if the card were $100k+, they might be more honest in their listings? Somehow I doubt that though.

[parkplace33]

Originally Posted by Snowman

Below a certain dollar threshold, I can certainly see it not being worth an AH's time to go pulling low-grade cards to provide descriptions for bidders or to write up a description for the listings. What that threshold should be is more debatable though. Less than $100? Probalby not worth their time. $1k+ cards though? If that's still not worth their time, then they probably shouldn't be worth your time either.

Memory Lane, for example, provides false descriptions and intentionally hides creases. Then they bitch at you over the phone when you call to complain about receiving a $25k+ card with large hidden creases despite the listing clearly stating that the card was absent of such flaws. Perhaps if the card were $100k+, they might be more honest in their listings? Somehow I doubt that though.

And knowingly auctioning off items they were not in possession of

[Johnny630]

Lmao !!!

[Fred]

Originally Posted by Leon

Really? Reading comprehension getting a bit FUZZY, Fred? See post at 1212am....
.

I read the first dozen posts and skipped the others. I started busting up at post 4 - 10. It's so true...if someone were to say something about a few of the AHs, there'd be people coming to the defense of those AHs.

[Exhibitman]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

The bottom line for many consigners and future consigners is how much money an auction house can make for them on said card. Scans they could care less they just want the biggest check possible so they kiss their ring turn a blind eye to certain behaviors, etc. because they think they’re gonna need them sometime down the road for their stuff when they sell. They are just playing the long game because it’s not about the cards it’s how much money they're gonna want the house to bring for them down the road utilizing their platform.
When there is money involved and big money involved, many things are tied in as part of the deal. Just keep your head down and keep moving. It’s just the way it is. It’s all about the most money possible.

I am genuinely curious and do not mean this as a slight or a challenge, so please take it as my trying to understand your perspective, because that is what it is: as negatively as you seem to view most of the card collecting world and its participants, why do you continue to participate? I ask because my way of looking at my card collecting is that when it becomes more negative than positive for me, I will stop and find something else to do for fun. I am pretty cynical and snarky by nature but overall I enjoy this thing of ours a lot, and when I read your posts I wonder if you enjoy it at all.

[Stonepony]

I personally do not trust Goldin’s scans of lower graded cards. I’ve been burned before. I would never bid on one unless I researched the card and found other images I felt I could trust. Furthermore, I’ve contacted them about low grade cards inquiring into the details of the condition… they sent me a form letter referral to PSA grading standards and said they couldn’t comment further.
Call REA or LOTG and you’ll get a 10 minute conversation about the card, it’s history and it’s condition.

[Peter_Spaeth]

There can't be many lines of business where there is so little incentive to provide great customer service. Imagine calling a car dealer with questions about a new model and being told to go read the company's manual. But it seems like here, people know the stuff will sell anyway.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

There can't be many lines of business where there is so little incentive to provide great customer service. Imagine calling a car dealer with questions about a new model and being told to go read the company's manual. But it seems like here, people know the stuff will sell anyway.

Funny you should mention car dealers. My experience has been that I usually know more than the sales agent, and will have to correct their misconceptions about details of the cars. Plus they’ve been incredibly slow to actually help me, sometimes wasting hours of my time just ignoring me while I was trying to close a deal. And on one occasion, I had one rep accuse me of not caring about my car because I declined to buy their silly extended warranty and service plan. Needless to say, when I got the survey asking about my experience, I let them have it. And they responded and were very contrite.

I suspect the biggest issue for them is they have a lot of turnover, and a lot of different models, so the salespeople struggle to keep up with the details. As to why they ignored me for so long, I suspect sometimes it was a negotiating tactic, and sometimes they just couldn’t find someone who actually had the answer to my question.

So they may not be the best counterpoint and example of stellar service and attention to the customer, at least in my experience.

[Peter_Spaeth]

Originally Posted by raulus

Funny you should mention car dealers. My experience has been that I usually know more than the sales agent, and will have to correct their misconceptions about details of the cars. Plus they’ve been incredibly slow to actually help me, sometimes wasting hours of my time just ignoring me while I was trying to close a deal. And on one occasion, I had one rep accuse me of not caring about my car because I declined to buy their silly extended warranty and service plan. Needless to say, when I got the survey asking about my experience, I let them have it. And they responded and were very contrite.

I suspect the biggest issue for them is they have a lot of turnover, and a lot of different models, so the salespeople struggle to keep up with the details. As to why they ignored me for so long, I suspect sometimes it was a negotiating tactic, and sometimes they just couldn’t find someone who actually had the answer to my question.

So they may not be the best counterpoint and example of stellar service and attention to the customer, at least in my experience.

I must have a good car dealer, they're always responsive.

[MikeGarcia]

.." I am pretty cynical and snarky by nature but overall I enjoy this thing of ours a lot "

.Ese ' cosa nostra ' is a copyrighted trademark , owned by several famiglia located in Palermo.

Luca Brazzi sleeps with the fishes. Have someone else start your car for a cuppla days , eh .

[Fred]

Originally Posted by raulus

Funny you should mention car dealers. My experience has been that I usually know more than the sales agent, and will have to correct their misconceptions about details of the cars. Plus they’ve been incredibly slow to actually help me, sometimes wasting hours of my time just ignoring me while I was trying to close a deal. And on one occasion, I had one rep accuse me of not caring about my car because I declined to buy their silly extended warranty and service plan. Needless to say, when I got the survey asking about my experience, I let them have it. And they responded and were very contrite.

I suspect the biggest issue for them is they have a lot of turnover, and a lot of different models, so the salespeople struggle to keep up with the details. As to why they ignored me for so long, I suspect sometimes it was a negotiating tactic, and sometimes they just couldn’t find someone who actually had the answer to my question.

So they may not be the best counterpoint and example of stellar service and attention to the customer, at least in my experience.

I'd have told the sales person that perhaps I don't need the car if he feels it's going to crap out and require an extended warranty and service plan.

There have been a few times when the picture in the item description didn't match the card(s) received because of scanning manipulation or just poor scanning. After those incidents, I was just very hesitant to bid in those auctions. Only once did I return a card because it was creased and the item description didn't mention it (it was a raw card). The AH took the card back and sold it in the next auction (with a better description and picture of the card).

[Johnny630]

Originally Posted by Exhibitman

I am genuinely curious and do not mean this as a slight or a challenge, so please take it as my trying to understand your perspective, because that is what it is: as negatively as you seem to view most of the card collecting world and its participants, why do you continue to participate? I ask because my way of looking at my card collecting is that when it becomes more negative than positive for me, I will stop and find something else to do for fun. I am pretty cynical and snarky by nature but overall I enjoy this thing of ours a lot, and when I read your posts I wonder if you enjoy it at all.

I enjoy it as well the cards are great along with many of the people. I don't mind the negativity, it's part of the industry.

[Yoda]

Although it may be axiomatic, I believe that high net worth individuals who drop a lot of coin in an AH auctions, will receive more attention, even if questioning a low value item.

[raulus]

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth

I must have a good car dealer, they're always responsive.

Could also just be small sample size. I’ve purchased a grand total of 3 new cars in my lifetime, and worked with 5 dealerships on those purchases. 2 of them were semi-okay and mostly responsive. The other 3 were great examples of how not to treat your customers.

[Snapolit1]

Originally Posted by Johnny630

I enjoy it as well the cards are great along with many of the people. I don't mind the negativity, it's part of the industry.

Seems a lot of the negativity isn't even aimed at the people doing the alleged bad stuff most times, but it's aimed at people who enjoy the hobby despite all it's quirks and weird characters. Like what's wrong with you people who are having a good time and aren't outraged about what I'm outraged about.

There are people very invested in the hobby being what it was when we were 10 years old. People putting cards in the spokes of their bikes, carrying a stack of cards in their front pocket with a rubber band, and flipping cards with their friends in the schoolyard. I get it. Nostalgia has a strong pull on a lot of people.

[timn1]

I am just an occasional ebay seller, not an auction house, but if I list a low-graded (slabbed) card that's going to sell for a relative pittance, and I supply a decent scan of it, I don't feel I should have to deal with a bunch of questions about specific problems it has. It got the grade it did because it has some fairly serious problem. If you don't want creases or wrinkles, then maybe consider going for a higher-grade card?

As others have said, with a big-money card that's a different story.

Originally Posted by GeoPoto

Since this thread seems to be struggling to find a horse to beat to death all over again, I'll jump in to say I think the AH's response is completely reasonable for a card that is expected to close under $100. If the card expected to sell for five figures, I would expect a more nuanced response from the AH. In between those extremes, past history with the AH would probably play a roll.

As the AH response implies, they can't afford to get between the bidder and the grading, which has already weighed the strengths and weaknesses of the card to arrive at the assigned grade. Whether you wind up agreeing with the grader or not is not something the AH can spend a lot of time discussing with you over an inexpensive card.

[Casey2296]

Originally Posted by Stonepony

I personally do not trust Goldin’s scans of lower graded cards. I’ve been burned before. I would never bid on one unless I researched the card and found other images I felt I could trust. Furthermore, I’ve contacted them about low grade cards inquiring into the details of the condition… they sent me a form letter referral to PSA grading standards and said they couldn’t comment further.
Call REA or LOTG and you’ll get a 10 minute conversation about the card, it’s history and it’s condition.

+1 Dave, I'm not a big time collector and collect what appeals to me when I can afford it, I won't deal with an AH that gives me negative energy, there are way too many options including the two you mentioned that have amazing offerings and I am happy to spend my budget with them instead. You can always find fantastic cards to buy with people who are positive and and a joy to deal with.

I don't need any cards that bad (well, maybe one or two) but outside of that...

I find enjoyment with the people I meet in this hobby and will only hang around folks who I have positive interactions with. Life is stressful enough, collecting baseball cards should be a stress reliever not a stress multiplier.