Joey Votto retires, is he a hall of famer?

[Bartholomew_Bump_Bailey]

Always seemed like a decent guy both on and off the field and he grew on me over the years (for the record I'm a Cubs fan, just sayin' ).

Has some pretty darn good all time numbers for a club that's been around for 134 years (Reds joined the N.L. in 1890). 2nd in Reds franchise history in homers, doubles (459) and OPS, 1st in walks (1365), 3rd in runs (1171), 4th in hits (2135) and 5th in games played (2056).

As much as I like him, he would be a first ballot Hall of Very Very Good in my humble opinion.

Thoughts???

[clydepepper]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew_Bump_Bailey

Always seemed like a decent guy both on and off the field and he grew on me over the years (for the record I'm a Cubs fan, just sayin' ).

Has some pretty darn good all time numbers for a club that's been around for 134 years (Reds joined the N.L. in 1890). 2nd in Reds franchise history in homers, doubles (459) and OPS, 1st in walks (1365), 3rd in runs (1171), 4th in hits (2135) and 5th in games played (2056).

As much as I like him, he would be a first ballot Hall of Very Very Good in my humble opinion.

Thoughts???

I think you nailed it, Mike.



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[todeen]

I believe that Joey Votto will make the HOF as a late ballot inductee. He isn't going to be an embarrassment like Harold Baines. He was an MVP, and missed his second MVP in the closest MVP race ever. He wanted to focus on getting on base, rather than hitting for power. Some people liked his old school mentality, and some people hated that. Regardless, he excelled at what he focused on and was considered elite at OBP against his peers.

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[todeen]

Here's another list comparing Joey Votto against HOF 1st basemen. He is right in the middle of the pack.

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[rats60]

Originally Posted by Bartholomew_Bump_Bailey

Always seemed like a decent guy both on and off the field and he grew on me over the years (for the record I'm a Cubs fan, just sayin' ).

Has some pretty darn good all time numbers for a club that's been around for 134 years (Reds joined the N.L. in 1890). 2nd in Reds franchise history in homers, doubles (459) and OPS, 1st in walks (1365), 3rd in runs (1171), 4th in hits (2135) and 5th in games played (2056).

As much as I like him, he would be a first ballot Hall of Very Very Good in my humble opinion.

Thoughts???

My comp for Joey Votto is Lance Berkman

Votto .294/.409/.511/.920 OPS+144
Berkman .293/.406/.537/.943 OPS+144

Berkman has more HRs and RBIs despite having 900 fewer ABs. Votto has a MVP, but Berkman has a championship, a championship the Cardinals don't win without Berkman's clutch hitting. Berkman was also much better in the postseson.

Votto .244/.319/.244/.563
Berkman .317/.417/.532/.949

Berkmam got 1.2% in his first ballot and fell off. I think Votto will stick on the ballot, but I don't see him having enough production to get elected as a 1B. Maybe both get elected by a Veteran's Committee in the distant future.

[packs]

Votto has a really high career WAR but his other stats really aren't screaming HOFer to me. He didn't hit 300, he didn't hit any milestone number of home runs, and other than walks and OBP he never lead the league in any counting stats except for doubles one year.

Hall of Very Good in my opinion.

[cgjackson222]

Originally Posted by rats60

My comp for Joey Votto is Lance Berkman

Votto .294/.409/.511/.920 OPS+144
Berkman .293/.406/.537/.943 OPS+144

Berkman has more HRs and RBIs despite having 900 fewer ABs. Votto has a MVP, but Berkman has a championship, a championship the Cardinals don't win without Berkman's clutch hitting. Berkman was also much better in the postseson.

Votto .244/.319/.244/.563
Berkman .317/.417/.532/.949

Berkmam got 1.2% in his first ballot and fell off. I think Votto will stick on the ballot, but I don't see him having enough production to get elected as a 1B. Maybe both get elected by a Veteran's Committee in the distant future.

I think Votto and Berkman are good comparisons, as they both have a career OPS+ of 144 (which is pretty damned good) and were All Stars 6 times. But I think Votto gets in and I don't think Berkman ever does.

Votto has the MVP and a Gold Glove. Votto has almost twice the black ink as Berkman and about 50% more gray ink.

Berkman does have 4 top 5 MVP finishes and 6 top 10 though, so it wouldn't be a huge stretch to put Berkman in.

But I think the main factor is that Berkman was overshadowed by a lot of players during the steroids era. He is sort of a victim of circumstance.

[D. Bergin]

Yes, absolutely. Maybe his counting stat’s aren’t quite there, but his analytical stats for the time period he played is off the charts. Had a Don Mattingly type career (with more walks) but was able to extend it just a bit further out.

[irv]

Would have been great to see him play some games with the Jays but, unfortunately, that didn't work out.

[cgjackson222]

MLB.com posed the question of whether Votto belongs in the Hall of Fame to 8 writers. I believe they all said yes, and pretty resoundingly.

https://www.mlb.com/news/roundtable-...-hall-of-famer

[Peter_Spaeth]

No question he makes it. The standards are down a tier from where they used to be.

[Beercan collector]

Less than 1200 runs and less than 1200 RBIs for a first baseman doesn’t sound too Hall of Fame-ish , certainly a quality player I hope he gets in - Playing all his (major lg) Games for one organizations kind of neat

[Bartholomew_Bump_Bailey]

Great feedback, thanks everyone!

I really appreciated the Berkman comparison. Berkman's what I like to refer to as a "lunch pail guy", shows up and does the job better than most, but really doesn't get more recognition outside the team's fan base (for the most part).

By the way......just found this awesome video a lil' while ago.....good stuff Joey Votto fanclub recruitment video

[Mike D.]

I certainly think Votto makes the Hall of Fame. He may not be first ballot because we're in a bit of a golden age for 1st basemen, but he'll make it (5 of the top 25 in career WAR at the position are active or have been in the last two years).

What's your favorite Joey Votto rookie or prospect card?

[todeen]

Lance Berkman & Joey Votto was brought up on Twitter. Votto has six seasons of 5.9 WAR or higher, Berkman has only 4. If you look at seasons of 4 WAR, Votto has 8 seasons and Berkman has 6. Berkman's best season was 6.9 WAR, and Votto has 3 seasons over 7 WAR, reaching a league leading 8.1 WAR the year he placed 2nd by a single vote to Giancarlo Stanton. Votto was a higher peak performer and he was at his peak for two seasons more. And for some analytical people, they like to look at a players peak 7 years. Votto eclipsed Berkman.

As for cards....A rare MiLB card is his Billings Mustangs card. Its rarity carries a premium. I think I paid $65 for mine, and I think that price holds steady. I was selling a group of Votto cards and someone asked me to separate the Billings card. Votto collectors know it's rarity if they are working on the PSA registry. His 2002 Bowman Chrome has the early easier rainbow (not all the refractor variations). The refractor is expensive and the Xfractor is ghastly expensive. The 2002 Topps 206 best card is the mini, and it comes in various difficulty levels. Polar Bear is not super hard to find. Print run to 1459 cards, but it's still slightly expensive. They divide Sweet Caporal up into color variations and it gets difficult. Don't forget Uzit. Finally, a true Reds collector must have the 2008 Kahns set RC. 2008 Topps Chrome is his most popular card, the rainbow had grown over 6 years. I just sold a PSA 9 Xfractor for $127.50; so this parallel is still readily attainable. But I like his SPx Auto. The SPx set also has a Kershaw auto RC.

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[rats60]

Neither Joey Votto or Lance Berkman won a silver slugger award. How is a first baseman a Hofer if he isn't a good enough hitter to win at least one silver slugger? It is not like Joey Votto was a great defensive player with 11 gold gloves.

The Silver Slugger Award was created in 1980. Every member of the Hall of Fame, excluding pitchers, who debuted after 1967 has won at least one silver slugger award, including Harold Baines and Ozzie Smith.

[packs]

Not to defend Votto but he did have the misfortune of playing in some of his best prime years while Albert Pujols was in his.

[todeen]

Originally Posted by rats60

Neither Joey Votto or Lance Berkman won a silver slugger award. How is a first baseman a Hofer if he isn't a good enough hitter to win at least one silver slugger? It is not like Joey Votto was a great defensive player with 11 gold gloves.

The Silver Slugger Award was created in 1980. Every member of the Hall of Fame, excluding pitchers, who debuted after 1967 has won at least one silver slugger award, including Harold Baines and Ozzie Smith.

In 2010, when Votto won his MVP he lost the Silver Slugger to Pujols. In 2017, when he led the NL in WAR, and was 2nd in MVP voting, he lost the Silver Slugger to Paul Goldschmidt. That's just bad luck and has nothing to do with Votto being worthy or unworthy.

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[Peter_Spaeth]

To argue against Votto you really have to argue against the whole new conception of the Hall.

[KJA]

Being a Votto/Reds fan I want to see him get in. But I think he might just be hall of very good, I think he needed maybe 1 more really good season in his prime or maybe needed that second MVP. If he does make it in I don't think he is first ballot though.