Fake Signed T206 Cards (Too Many to List in the Title, See First Post for List)

[SetBuilder]

Saw this card at REA and thought it looked too drawn and too close to the known Parent exemplars. Figured I wouldn't have to look through too many listings on Worthpoint so I gave it a shot.

Sure enough...

First sold on eBay on July 28, 2015 as a PSA 2.5. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...ent-1736998090.

Then sold at REA in their 2016 Spring auction (with JSA cert) for $2,700. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...r-fred-parent/.

[Look through posts below for the rest.]

Post #1: Fred Parent
Post #8: Billy Sullivan
Post #23: Bob Rhoades (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #59: Paddy Livingston (thanks to T206Collector)
Post #100: Frank "Homerun" Baker (thanks to Pat_R)
Post #109: Elmer Flick (thanks to bn2cardz)
Post #128: Heinie Zimmerman (thanks to Thromdog)
Post #152: Wid Conroy (thanks to Pat _R)
Post #175: Larry Doyle (thanks to t206kid)
Post #194: Jap Barbeau (thanks to rommesc)
Post #205: Red Murray (thanks to atx840)
Post #366: Eddie Cicotte (thanks to The Nasty Nati)
Post #374: Nap Rucker
Post #446: Jesse Tannehill (thanks to Pat_R)
Other Thread: Rube Marquard

Total: 15

[SetBuilder]

Large images for reference:

[bbcard1]

Setting aside the fact he died in 1972, what's to say that he didn't sign it in 2016?

[T206Collector]

Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well!

[Rhotchkiss]

Manny, you are a total rockstar! I don’t collect autographs, but as an avid card collector and active hobby participant, I very much appreciate your efforts on pointing out these forgeries; at the least, my eyes are much more wide open now.

Ryan Hotchkiss

[ejharrington]

Originally Posted by T206Collector

Manny you're doing amazing work here. That one came not only with an SGC authentication, but a full JSA LOA as well!

+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!

[oldjudge]

As I asked in the other post, has anyone gone to REA to ask who consigned the card? It should be possible to trace back and find the forger, especially when done in conjunction with the Marquard card.

[Pat R]

Fantastic work Manny! Now if we could only get someone to wake up
and start investigating and prosecute the people responsible for
crimes like this.

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by ejharrington

+1

I collect primarily cards but have bid on some nice autographed items from time-to-time and never won. Right now, I am thanking my lucky stars I lost!

Ditto. Autos are too risky.

[SetBuilder]

Another one...this one's a biggie at $6,600.

Sold on eBay as an SGC 30 on July 8, 2015. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lly-1734408624.

Then sold at the REA 2016 Spring auction. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...illy-sullivan/.

[SetBuilder]

Large images for reference:

[BLongley]

Oh wow, this is bad!

[SetBuilder]

Originally Posted by BLongley

Oh wow, this is bad!

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

[Fred]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

I'm almost scared to keep looking. I may have to go into witness protection if I find another one.

Uh, no.... to most of us, you're a frigging machine! This is going to rock signed T206 card collecting to the core.

Was JSA the authenticator on all of the T206 fake signature cards?

[Laxcat]

This is not good. This makes my heart and head hurt. I don’t have any prewar autos that aren’t football but this makes me not want to purchase anything until this crap gets sorted out.

[HobokenJon]

The authenticator in question in my view tossed his reputation out the window with this letter to the court on behalf of -- after Mastro had been convicted.



And think about it . . . How would anyone know if a purported autograph of an obscure ballplayer from 100+ years ago was real, even in the absence of forensic evidence that it was fake?

[HobokenJon]

Just realized I should've posted that last post to the other thread about the fake autograph that SGC rejected. I'll post it there now.

[pete zouras]

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

[The Nasty Nati]

Originally Posted by pete zouras

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

My opinion, your card is probably an authentic auto. The fading of the signature is pretty hard to forge and I believe that is a fountain pen auto.

Ones I would be suspicion of are the bold ballpoint pen and sharpie signatures.

[T206Collector]

Originally Posted by pete zouras

Not sure where the best place to post this is--sorry in advance if it is the wrong place or too soon as I'm sure I'm not alone. I purchased this pretty commonly signed card over 10 years ago for then premium of $180 or so. My one and only signed vintage card, so I won't be too upset if they got this one wrong as well.I 'd be interested in people's thoughts as to its authenticity and value given recently discovered fakes. Thanks

This card is from the 2007 Great Pittsburgh Find of Signed T206 Cards. Only the Covaleski (secretarial) didn't pass authentication. I would credit this Find with bringing recent attention to signed T206 cards (it certainly jump-started my collection), and unfortunately appears to have invited more forgers into the game.

The Snodgrass asked about above is from "Pre-eBay Group 3" which means they were all offered to me by a recognized dealer in Pittsburgh (either "ctang50" and "r.c.means" on ebay) before he listed them on eBay. From that group, I still have -- and adore -- the signed T201 Wheat and the signed T206 Barbeau. You can read about the find and review the cards from that find on my website.

http://www.signedt206.com/great-pittsburgh-find/

[Fred]

Holy crap, the plot thickens....

[The Nasty Nati]

I'm starting to wonder if we can trace a majority of the existing signed T206s to their unsigned version through a deep Worthpoint search. This is pretty alarming.

[gregr2]

Great work! Though this is really sad.

[T206Collector]

Now you've got one of my newest ones, and an expensive one to boot!



Guess I'll be calling REA and SGC now...

Edited to add that it is, indeed, really sad. Sullivan is the most I've ever paid for a signed T206 card. And I have never questioned its authenticity. Plus, it was authenticated by SGC and JSA, and in the most reputable auction house in our hobby.

[scooter729]

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

[OldSchoolBaseball]

It's just the tip of the iceberg. Those T206, Goudey, etc vintage autograph collections are loaded with fakes. And if they are not, everyone will think so anyway.

Too much money and greed.

[bn2cardz]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

Those blocked ebay names change sometimes, so we either have 4 letters from the username or the user changed their name since Feb.

[The Nasty Nati]

I found another.
Here's the worthpoint link: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...eet-1737649372
And a better picture of the auto (t206collector I hope it's okay I reference your photo): http://www.signedt206.com/other-peop...ktbffyldzycqzp

The creasing is identical. There is a tobacco mark that was removed on his crotch but the missing cardboard is in the same location.
I'm sure a ton more fakes are about to be unsurfaced. This took me 2 minutes to find.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

It's the same buyer, and I'll say it's the forger. No such thing as coincidences

[Pat R]

Originally Posted by scooter729

Both the Parent card and the Sullivan card were sold to an eBay masked ID of "a**a". So same buyer for both off of eBay.

The Marquard card had a masked ID of "b**o" so a different buyer, but it was also in 2018 whereas the others were in 2015, so easily could be the same person with a different eBay ID. (Though the feedback screenshot via eBay shows this person as "f**f", they appear on VCP as "b**o". Not sure why there is a difference.)

The letters aren't always the same on the ID's even if it's the same buyer.

The last sale of the Parent I found was August 22 2015 on ebay.
There were two other cards purchased by the same buyer.

Parent Sale.jpg


Here's the scans from that sale

Parent.jpg

Parent Back.jpg

[pbspelly]

Originally Posted by SetBuilder

Another one...this one's a biggie at $6,600.

Sold on eBay as an SGC 30 on July 8, 2015. Link here: https://www.worthpoint.com/worthoped...lly-1734408624.

Then sold at the REA 2016 Spring auction. Link here: https://www.robertedwardauctions.com...illy-sullivan/.

I remember seeing that signed Sullivan and thinking it probably wasn't real.

I still don't really understand how autograph experts determine what is authentic or not. People's autographs vary so much over time and from one signature to another that it just seems almost impossible to truly know for certain. I've read a lot of the explanations on the autograph forum and I'm always fascinated by their explanations, but never 100% convinced that they're right. That's one reason I've never been into autographed stuff.

If anyone ever needs to see a genuine Sullivan Sr. sig for comparison purposes, by the way, I do have one or two family documents that he signed. In this case , of course, that's not necessary since it's clear it is not his because-due to the brilliant card-comparison sleuthing--we know that whoever signed it signed long after he was long gone.

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[barrysloate]

I'm guessing this goes beyond T-206 and into other sets as well. I've noticed a tremendous increase in the number of autographed cards being auctioned lately. This really doesn't look good.

[Aquarian Sports Cards]

While the evidence so far is damning, we shouldn't necessarily over-react either. There are lots more cards hitting the market than ever before because a generation of collectors is dying off, or selling their collection because their heirs aren't interested. I assume some of the increase in autographs is attributable to the same cause.

[Republicaninmass]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

You selling?

Lmk

[vintagebaseballcardguy]

Originally Posted by Republicaninmass

You selling?

Lmk

Never been interested much in the autographed card scene. So, no. This is about as disturbing as anything I have seen in the hobby. If I don't see it signed in front of me or have someone I know and supremely trust, I can't trust it is a legit auto. This is part of the reason I have largely avoided autograph collecting. I feel badly for those victimized.

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

[slidekellyslide]

Holy smokes...someone is turning $40 cards into $5000+ cards. Good work Manny, Patrick and Brock. Should be interesting to find out who consigned these.

[atx840]

Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost




http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!

[Vintageclout]

Originally Posted by atx840

Don't want to distract from this great effort here. Just wanted to mention that having worthpoint and other sites that cache sales has been a major help in tracking down several faked T206 errors. From my small dealings with this, PSA is able to go to eBay and track down the buyers info. Just track everything you have found, dates and screenshot them.

Fake Cobb ghost




http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=170638

Fake Magie errors.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...e+Magie&page=1

Keep it up guys!

Glad you brought these two cards to light in order to make another critical point. If anyone thinks that only autographs require a “leap of faith”, they are only fooling themselves. For years, It’s been no secret that autograph fraud exists in the hobby. However, it is ALSO a fact that card doctoring to enhance grades and increase card values by thousands of dollars likewise has become an issue. Bottom line is in any hobby where an opportunity exists to significantly enhance value, fraud is always going to be a potential issue. The answer is NOT to stop collecting what your passion dictates, but for collectors to continue utilizing their expertise and sound judgement when purchasing their valued collectibles. The superb dectective work for these 3 forged T206s is a perfect example of the ongoing due diligence that will help minimize the criminal activity.

[mrvster]

all very disturbing

holy crap! chris!

great to see you posting again

[Cooptown]

Nice work on this gentlemen. This seems to be getting legs. This just popped up in my twitter feed.

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...ies-uncovered/

[conor912]

Originally Posted by vintagebaseballcardguy

Aside from disgust at the forger, I am thinking this brings into question most any autograph that has ever been authenticated. The entire system...

Sent from my SM-G900V using Tapatalk

If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.

[calvindog]

Originally Posted by conor912

If the supposed top dog in authentication is missing this many, it's a real problem. At absolute best, this is complacency on a level approaching neglegence.

Sal Bando says hello.

[martyesullivan]

As the owner of 165 different signed, authenticated, 1933 Goudey cards, this is disturbing to say the least. I appreciate the efforts of everyone here. Hopefully this forger(s) will be uncovered sooner, rather than later.

[BruceinGa]

Great work, thanks guys!!

[topcat61]

Thank you for posting this, truly appreciate it. I had it out with an authenticator at SGC at the Shriner's Show on November 3rd on a related topic.

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...=shriners+show

[CuriousGeorge]

Is the top dog missing something or .... ??

[Duluth Eskimo]

Kudos gentleman. I am always amazed at the work people can do with technology.

[Pat R]

Here's the Sullivan sale, same buyer as the Parent.

Sullivan Sale.jpg

[mrvster]

will be caught......we have super sleuths here on the board like set builder and Pat....


unfortunately, the damage has already been done....


nice jerk off who ever you are......ruin another part of our hobby for a few bucks....


I'm not perfect and try not to judge anyone, but creating these cards only creates anxiety about our hobby in general....


a pre THANK YOU ASSHOLE