Baseball Hall Of Fame election

[Klrdds]

I can't believe that no one was elected this year by the veteran's committee.
What a disgrace to the early days of baseball !!!

[David Atkatz]

It might have something to do with the fact that the veterans on the Committee never heard of the nominees, nor have they ever read a book.

[tazdmb]

Plus the fact that the HOF members on the committee want to keep it exclusive and probably know they are going to vote no before even stepping foot in that room.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Plus the fact that the HOF members on the committee want to keep it exclusive and probably know they are going to vote no before even stepping foot in that room.

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

It might have something to do with the fact that the veterans on the Committee never heard of the nominees, nor have they ever read a book.

Then they have no business voting.

[dgo71]

I'm always amazed that people complain in January that the HOF is watered down, yet every December complain that the Veteran Committee fails to elect anyone. Not directing this at anyone personally, just an observation.

[bigtrain]

Originally Posted by David Atkatz

It might have something to do with the fact that the veterans on the Committee never heard of the nominees, nor have they ever read a book.

Truer words were never written.

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by bigtrain

Truer words were never written.

At least Bert Blyleven did some great research, on Wikipedia!

http://www.twincities.com/sports/ci_...tes-just-didnt

"I know all the research I did on Wikipedia."

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by dgo71

I'm always amazed that people complain in January that the HOF is watered down, yet every December complain that the Veteran Committee fails to elect anyone. Not directing this at anyone personally, just an observation.

It's only watered down if someone like Marion or Jack Morris got elected. I have been happy with the choices in recent years.

[bnorth]

Originally Posted by Topps206

It's only watered down if someone like Marion or Jack Morris got elected. I have been happy with the choices in recent years.

I would add Bert Blyleven to that list.

[Chris Counts]

For years I used to get all worked up about who gets elected into the Hall of Fame — and who doesn't. I finally decided it simply doesn't matter because the voters have gotten it wrong so many times that what they have created looks more like an exclusive country club than a museum that truly honors the best players who ever played the game. I visited Cooperstown for the first time this summer, and while I enjoyed looking at the exhibits, I skipped the room with the plaques. As a lifelong baseball historian and stats freak, I know who the the real hall of famers are (and Minnie Minoso is one of them!).

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would add Bert Blyleven to that list.

In support of Bert Blyleven, he had 60 shutouts in his career which is top 10 all-time and a butt-load.
I had the opportunity to watch him pitch quite a bit. Terrific curve ball and he was a winner, FWIW...

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by bnorth

I would add Bert Blyleven to that list.

I think Blyleven is worthy. Ditto to Chris Counts on Minoso.

[yanks12025]

If these people couldn't get into the hall the last 80 years, then why should they now.

[dgo71]

Originally Posted by Scott Garner

In support of Bert Blyleven, he had 60 shutouts in his career which is top 10 all-time and a butt-load.
I had the opportunity to watch him pitch quite a bit. Terrific curve ball and he was a winner, FWIW...

Also, third all time in K's until passed by Big Unit and Roidger Clemens. Played for awful teams and would have easily surpassed the magical 300-win total that would have made him a first ballot guy. But this debate has been done so I digress.

[Scott Garner]

Originally Posted by dgo71

Also, third all time in K's until passed by Big Unit and Roidger Clemens. Played for awful teams and would have easily surpassed the magical 300-win total that would have made him a first ballot guy. But this debate has been done so I digress.

Correct! I couldn't agree more.

[jason.1969]

There's a part of me that thinks this committee should be disbanded. If various dead cardboard guys haven't been selected by now, maybe their ships have truly passed.

I am good with special committees that look at players not previously considered, as was the case with Negro Leaguers and potentially could someday be the case with collegiate players or Little Leaguers, though I hope not.

I recognize the viable argument that recent developments in sabrmetrics have allowed (some) modern voters a new lens through which to view players. However, I feel even this has run its course. I don't think it will provide us with any breakthrough discoveries that turn also-rans into HOFers.

[packs]

There are plenty of deserving Cuban and Negro League players. I hope the special committees continue. They will only be successful however if they are made up of the right people. There's no excuse for having people like Phil Neikro and Bobby Cox decide whether or not Harry Stovey or Bill Dahlen are HOFers. They know nothing. It should strictly be limited to baseball historians.

[RaidonCollects]

^

Still waiting for Rube Foster and Buck O' Neil to get inducted.

~Owen

[tazdmb]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

^

Still waiting for Rube Foster and Buck O' Neil to get inducted.

~Owen

Rube Foster? You know he was inducted in 1981.

[Topps206]

I paraphrased Hall and Oates on my Twitter: The committee is out of touch but the snubs are never out of time.

[RaidonCollects]

Originally Posted by tazdmb

Rube Foster? You know he was inducted in 1981.

Well that's very embarrassing for me

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by RaidonCollects

Well that's very embarrassing for me

At least you didn't say you were waiting on Ruth and Gehrig!

[esd10]

I like how the only research he did was on wiki and he based his vote on that.

[w7imel]

There is a good case to be made for Maris as well. Would be a shame for him to be forgotten. He had a really decent carrier and took down a record many believe would stand forever.

[packs]

Honestly I think Maris is the most deserving of the guys not in. What he did was remarkable and he was never the same after. I know it was one season, but it took his life and career away.

[Topps206]

I remember back in 2006 being shocked Maris wasn't in the HOF. I assumed he had already been in. Much as I like new Hall of Famers, I cannot find myself to support him.

[packs]

It was an incredible achievement and he what he had to overcome to do it should be enough to warrant him a plaque.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by packs

It was an incredible achievement and he what he had to overcome to do it should be enough to warrant him a plaque.

A lot of people have incredible achievements. Critics say Hack Wilson only got one because of 191.

[w7imel]

Maris stats were respectable as well. 275 hr, 2 time mvp, seven world series apperences and a gold glove. Not to metion you take away Bonds, Mcguire and sosa's steroid inflated numbers and Maris would still be king.

[esd10]

tomy mullane is more deserving than Blyleven to have a plaque in the hof

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Maris stats were respectable as well. 275 hr, 2 time mvp, seven world series apperences and a gold glove. Not to metion you take away Bonds, Mcguire and sosa's steroid inflated numbers and Maris would still be king.

Players with more home runs (Too many to name) or just as many MVP awards (Murphy) aren't in. Some had more World Series appearances (Joe Collins) not even a blip on the radar. You can win a handful of Gold Gloves (Freehan) and that doesn't suffice.

Mazeroski's main reason for the HOF is his homer off of Ralph Terry. Do we want to induct someone simply because of a terrific home run year when people arguably think he shouldn't have even been MVP?

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by esd10

tomy mullane is more deserving than Blyleven to have a plaque in the hof

I don't see why it should be one or the other.

[packs]

Hack Wilson is in the HOF because of one season. Dizzy Dean is in because of his 30 win season. I don't see what makes their seasons more remarkable than Maris'.

[Topps206]

I'm thinking Dean was better as a pitcher than Maris was a player. It's not the best argument to use that Y should be in if X is also in.

[packs]

It's an argument that people use every year, especially when it comes to 3,000 hits or 500 home runs or 300 wins.

[Topps206]

I do support those who reach magical milestones, so long as they're clean. I think the case could be made Hack Wilson deserves it more than Maris does.

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Players with more home runs (Too many to name) or just as many MVP awards (Murphy) aren't in. Some had more World Series appearances (Joe Collins) not even a blip on the radar. You can win a handful of Gold Gloves (Freehan) and that doesn't suffice.

Mazeroski's main reason for the HOF is his homer off of Ralph Terry. Do we want to induct someone simply because of a terrific home run year when people arguably think he shouldn't have even been MVP?

My point being Maris should be talked about by future baseball fans. Not having him in the HOF you risk future generations not knowing or hearing about one of the most remarkable season in baseball. Does that make sence?

[toyman55]

Originally Posted by w7imel

My point being Maris should be talked about by future baseball fans. Not having him in the HOF you risk future generations not knowing or hearing about one of the most remarkable season in baseball. Does that make sence?

I agree with you Michael, not only was Roger's 61 season one of the greatest of all time with he and Mantle going toe to toe, but, Roger was a class act and deserves to be in the Hall too. For my two cents worth I also feel the Steroid players should have their place in the hall as well especially when you consider things Cobb, Ruth, Williams and other greats in the hall did as well. ( I Know I
Am Going To Get Blasted For This Opinion)

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by w7imel

My point being Maris should be talked about by future baseball fans. Not having him in the HOF you risk future generations not knowing or hearing about one of the most remarkable season in baseball. Does that make sence?

I think future fans and younger generations will know about him just fine, especially if his name is brought up because people don't acknowledge the PED users having surpassed him. Future fans and younger generations can discuss Maris without his induction into Cooperstown.

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by Topps206

I think future fans and younger generations will know about him just fine, especially if his name is brought up because people don't acknowledge the PED users having surpassed him. Future fans and younger generations can discuss Maris without his induction into Cooperstown.

Try asking 10 teenage boys who are little League players who Roger Maris is and I think you will be surprised how many cant answer it.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Try asking 10 teenage boys who are little League players who Roger Maris is and I think you will be surprised how many cant answer it.

The same would be true of 80% of actual HOFers!

[theshleps]

My son batboyed for TEAM USA when they were practicing in AZ awhile back. Frank Robinson was manager and players like Mauer, Wainwright and many others (most eventually made the majors). The vast majority of the team did not know that Frank ever played in the majors, let alone was in the HOF. True story
Baseball history is sorely lacking today. take kids getting autographs- they will go after a scrub player and it you offer to trade satchel paige for the scrub he won't know who he is. Or when I used to go to hotels in the 60's to get mlb teams I remember running after Dick Green but then letting Marlon Brando walk buy not caring. And Buddy Rich couldn't convince any of us kids to get his autograph.

[jason.1969]

I remember hearing around 1986 or so that someone asked Don Mattingly what it was like to be the best Yankee first baseman since Lou Gehrig. And Donny Baseball didn't know who Lou Gehrig was.

Not so with guys like us. We're a special breed. We could probably bump into old time ballplayers and tell them things about themselves they didn't know.

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by w7imel

Try asking 10 teenage boys who are little League players who Roger Maris is and I think you will be surprised how many cant answer it.

Ask them who Kiki Cuyler is. Or Eddie Collins. Or Nap Lajoie. Or Dazzy Vance. Burleigh Grimes. I could go on and on.

It's their responsibility to learn the history of the game, not someone to induct an undeserving player that most people should know anyway.

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by Topps206

Ask them who Kiki Cuyler is. Or Eddie Collins. Or Nap Lajoie. Or Dazzy Vance. Burleigh Grimes. I could go on and on.

It's their responsibility to learn the history of the game, not someone to induct an undeserving player that most people should know anyway.

I agree Maris stats may not be as good as most in HOF, I believe character and what you mean to the game should also carry equally amount of weight when being concidered for the HOF. If you go by stats only then you would elect the steroid guys right? The reason they haven,t been elected is character flaws not stats.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by w7imel

I agree Maris stats may not be as good as most in HOF, I believe character and what you mean to the game should also carry equally amount of weight when being concidered for the HOF. If you go by stats only then you would elect the steroid guys right? The reason they haven,t been elected is character flaws not stats.

No argument from me. Would support Maris and Hodges for sure and personally would never vote for McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc. (though I admittedly couldn't define my et cetera precisely!)

Were there a gun to my head to vote for a steroids guy, I wouldn't even think twice. Would vote for Canseco. One, I think his outspokeness helped restore some integrity to the game. And two, did you see how awesome he was to the N54 member who visited him for the personal signing session? :-)

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

No argument from me. Would support Maris and Hodges for sure and personally would never vote for McGwire, Bonds, Clemens, Sosa, etc. (though I admittedly couldn't define my et cetera precisely!)

Were there a gun to my head to vote for a steroids guy, I wouldn't even think twice. Would vote for Canseco. One, I think his outspokeness helped restore some integrity to the game. And two, did you see how awesome he was to the N54 member who visited him for the personal signing session? :-)

I did not see that...do you have a link?

[Topps206]

Originally Posted by w7imel

I agree Maris stats may not be as good as most in HOF, I believe character and what you mean to the game should also carry equally amount of weight when being concidered for the HOF. If you go by stats only then you would elect the steroid guys right? The reason they haven,t been elected is character flaws not stats.

They haven't been elected because their methods have compromised the integrity of the game. There are quite a few players in Cooperstown who didn't exemplify the greatest character in the world and I'm sure they won't be the last.

[jason.1969]

Originally Posted by w7imel

I did not see that...do you have a link?

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1414877


Chasing Canseco - Best Day Ever.

Last thursday morning marked the start of our 4,000 mile / 10 day family road trip. The plan was to go to hoover dam,the beach in California, LEGOLAND, carlsbad caverns, visit a friend in the mountain......

[w7imel]

Originally Posted by jason.1969

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?p=1414877


Chasing Canseco - Best Day Ever.

Last thursday morning marked the start of our 4,000 mile / 10 day family road trip. The plan was to go to hoover dam,the beach in California, LEGOLAND, carlsbad caverns, visit a friend in the mountain......

Really cool story!!!!!!!!!!!!!