Would you do business with the devil?

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Posted By: Tim

We all have cards that we desire and rarely see them come up for sale. But what if the tough to find card you desired was listed on Ebay or in a major auction house by a seller you knew to have a bad reputation. Knowing the card was what it was advertised to be, would you pass as a statement against the seller, or bid begrudgingly knowing if you dont buy it someone else will?

I know this forum does a great job of exposing those that seek to take advantage through shill bidding, misinformation, or outright deception, but they dont seem to go away. They just move to another location and continue to do business.

So would you do business with the devil to get that card?

"I don't believe in hypothetical situations, that's like lying to your brain." Kenneth, 30 Rock.

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Posted By: Marc S.

which is one reason some otherwise shady/unsavory characters continue to perpetuate in this hobby.

Of course, playing Devil's Advocate, by not doing so, you create a slippery slope that in the long term is somewhat impossible to maintain. If I have a grudge against Dealer X, [who is the Devil Incarnate], and he has this phenomenal card I would love to own -- but I pass on it, am I then obligated to pass on it again when Buyer Y purchases it [at a discount] and tries to flip it on Ebay, etc.?

That's the part I can't get around -- I don't spend hours every week/month cataloging specific wants, where they sell, and how much they sell for. So then trying to track it on the secondary market becomes tough.

For example, I know one of the rarer type cards I own was originally sourced from a dealer with whom I would not normally deal. Luckily, not only was I able to pick the card up later from a collecting friend, but at 30% less than it sold for in that original dealer's auction.

M

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Posted By: Matt

I'm not sure your hypothetical is valid - if a seller is known to have been dishonest, then I wouldn't assume "the card was what it was advertised to be" to be true. I'd be worried that the card is misrepresented in some way, or the seller will shill me up, etc. I don't think the two can be separated.

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Posted By: brock

I would not deal with the devil for a baseball card, but i would deal with the devil and sell my soul for other things(Lots of money).

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Posted By: Tim Sanders

calling someone selling cards the devil. Not to get religious or political (two topics that could explode on this board) but it's not as if they are abusing children. Knowing someone's sales history will make me hesitant or cautious. If they wrong me directly there is no doubt I will not participate.

If it's a card you want you set your budget and if it's shilled past your price then they lose the sale.

If their sales practices get vulgar/abusive I will pass but I don't have to like the person- just the card!

The reason I came to Net 54 has been the quality of the people and that you can like both the person and the card for a change!

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Posted By: Tim

Tim, I'm in no way tring to insight any kind of religious debate, but rather use the term "the devil" as those that are seen in the hobby as the worst kind of sellers.

Unfortunatley they don't just go away when exposed and do continue to get their hands on desirable cards. I was just wondering at what point is who you're dealing with outweighed by the card you are looking for?

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Posted By: Tim Sanders

I knew it wasn't religous! But I may be a little bit off, but in my mind there are plenty of flaws in the hobby. Shilling, selling fakes, sniping (yes I think this is wrong but that's another topic all together)...but to me it's the card not the person. Unless they burn me - I might take the chance- cautiously.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Just curious, Tim, what is wrong with sniping?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I have a "no bid" list, and I stick to it regardless of whether they have a card I need. It's just cards.

-Al

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Posted By: James Gallo

I have made it perfectly clear in my toy business and hobbies that if someone wrongs me I will have NO dealings with them in any way. I have passed on things that I would noramally have bought. The fact of the matter is I don't feel bad in anyway and don't miss or regret a thing. If I am meant to have something I will eventually.

Also IMO once something is passed on it is free game. Just because it was once owned by "the devil" doesn't keep me from buying it, as after the fact it doesn't help him in any way.

There are few cards that are 1/1 (that I collect) and mostly they will show up for sale again sooner or later.

James G

Looking for 1915 Cracker Jacks and 1909-11 American Caramel E90-1.

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Posted By: Tim Sanders

I don't wat to hijack the thread but I feel it is a form of price manipulation. If you want to start a different thread I am more than willing to get bashed for my opinions. Lt's leave this one to the discussion of shady sellers.

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Posted By: Sean C

There are more than a few auction houses I won't buy from because of their antics and reputation.

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Posted By: Steve F

There is this one legit Cobby I want. Wanted for a couplea years now. It is for sale, but I won't buy it from this seller -he's a well known DB. I hope he remains frustrated that it's not moving and ends up deeply discounting it.

I will buy it however, from the next owner if it ever does come up again. If not, big whoop... As Al pointed out, "it's just cards."

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Steve, um, I have a Cobb for sale now.

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Posted By: Scott M.

Hmmmm... I have a Cobb currently available for sale as well. Maybe I'd better go to the mirror and check for horns

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Posted By: Steve F

"... and I see no horns on your head."

No thanks fellas. This Cobb is a 1/1 and surprisingly, not to valuable -it's how I fly

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Posted By: leon

For my own edification you said "DB".....is that short for deadbeat, or what?

For the record....there are few folks I won't do business with...and it's a shame as I have seen them have stuff I want ....but I just won't do it....

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Whew, dodged that bullet.

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Posted By: Jim VB

Leon,

"DB" ?

Just a guess, but I thought he meant a specific feminine hygiene cleansing product.

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Posted By: Steve F

Yea, What Jim wrote. Net54 Health Class, but I sure hope the kids got school today.

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Posted By: leon

Sorry, I am a little naive about some acronyms....I hope I never become a DB then.....

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

There are many dealers and auction houses I will never do business with. Those on my list are almost all there because of shady dealings I had with them. There are some people who I do not personally like, but are ethical in their business dealings, making it tolerable to do business with them, to a point. In a few cases, I will simply not deal with someone because they are too big of a DB for me to be associated with them in any way, but that is rare. I suspect there are those who feel the same way about me.

It seems like most collectors have a Faustian approach to collecting, from what I've seen. Whatever works, I guess. But for me, life is way too short to get involved with shady people just to advance my collecting pursuits a little. Even though I have passed on many items and let some things go for many times less than I would have paid, I've still been able to build a decent collection.

A few months ago there was an item I liked being auctioned by one of the auction houses I will not deal with. I mentioned the item to someone who was bidding on a bunch of items and told him how I'd pay $3,000 for this particular piece if it wasn't being sold by scumbags. I mentioned how someone was probably going to wind up with a bargain since I knew I would probably have paid more than anyone else. This guy wound up winning it for around $1,500 (after BP) and sold it to me for $3,000. It's one of my favorite items and I didn't even have to deal with a-holes to get it!

This is something to consider when consigning material. How many bidders won't be bidding on your material because of how shady the auction house is?

The bottom line is, there are way too many scumbags in this hobby.

On a totally unrelated note, I noticed that Dave Kohler and SCP Auctions got some press recently for bidding on and winning a Ruth uniform in a recent auction.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Tim

"The bottom line is, there are way too many scumbags in this hobby."

That sentiment is the bases for my original post. Unfortuntely it seems that the scumbags always have the ability to get there hands on desired items and either from lack of knowledge or lack of caring people continue to deal with them.

In a perfect world once they were found out to be scumbags it would be known and have a serious effect on their ability to do business. I just don't see that happening.

And though there are many collectors that will stick to their principals and not do business with scumbags, there are many that will look the other way.

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

hmm........I wonder who the auction house you're talking about is........

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Posted By: Jim VB

"On a totally unrelated note..."


Very smooth Ryan. We have no idea what you mean.

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Posted By: Jim VB

To answer the original question...

No. There are a handful of people/dealers that I won't do business with, no matter what.

But I am the first to admit, I have a sliding scale. When I was building my T206 set, I could afford to be very picky who I bought from, because almost every card (520/524) is pretty readily available. If cards from the 1932 NY Giants Schedule Postcards come along, my "rule" may be tested.

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Posted By: JimB

There are people I will not deal with in this hobby.
JimB

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Posted By: Alan U

There are sellers I will not buy from, but as to the devil, if it really were the devil I probably wouldn't know it, so therefore I would bid.

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Posted By: Ryan Christoff

Just because I mentioned Dave Kohler, that doesn't mean he is a huge scumbag who I look forward to spending time with at the National in Cleveland if he shows up. It also doesn't mean that I would never, under any circumstances, bid with SCP Auctions because of their history of stealing my money. I never said that I wouldn't place a bid in one of their auctions even if they had kidney for sale and I needed a transplant.

You guys must be reading too much into my post.

-Ryan

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Ryan, I'm amazed that SCP never made that right for you. Disgusting. I wonder if it was worth all the negative publicity they received?