Kevin Saucier - Adding Value

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

"The idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service"

I will pay on expensive cards I buy for the service. I never said I expect anyone to pay. People can make their own decisions.

"The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here."

Tom--you have a huge ego--thats obvious--but the only time I ever think of you is when you jump on a message board and start blasting away.

My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here.

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Posted By: Brian

Jim,

How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

But you care what they think of you over here. I don't. I'm just here to jerk your chain because everything I have said about your manipulative ways is documented by you. And I have it.

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Posted By: barrysloate

One of the top 5 two faced people: that equals ten people!

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Posted By: Richard

How much is Kevin Saucier charging to look at a slab?

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Barry:

I think it's actually only two and a half people.

-Al

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jim, if you have never let Kevin review your collection, and you don't plan on allowing him to do so, how can you so confidently support him as a hobby expert? I'm not saying otherwise. I am just wondering how you arrived at this conclusion.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Another thought on this ill-conceived plan...

If you see Kevin's value in so much as asking him to review cards you may purchase (at auction or for sale) how would you expect him to review the cards? For instance, let's say you are interested in a 1933 Goudey Sport King Ty Cobb in PSA 8 in a Mastro auction and you want him to review it prior to you bidding. HOw is he supposed to get access to it? I doubt that the auction house (or the consignor) would be very open to the idea of having him review it on the chance he may deem it altered. Access to these cards would seem to be a huge problem. Not unless you plan on employing a hidden camera or some other covert operation.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

I will take the high road again and let people draw their own conclusions about Papa.

Tom--if you want to publish my private e-mails to you--that you encouraged me to send to you and not put on LTS go right ahead--it would be right in line with your character.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Keith,

This has all been said before--I have said on here many times that the plan is only workable when I buy directly from dealers.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

If I wanted to hire anyone for a service like this it would be Moser. But it's still a dumb idea even with him.

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Posted By: Elliot

"My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here."

My vote: Look in the mirror Jim.

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Posted By: Mark

I've offered my services before. I will, from time to time, and for little or no recompense, verify if Kevin is trimmed, altered or bleached in any way. I can detect if he has built-up corners, and I can determine if any part of him has, at any time, been erased. And I can do it all without removing him from his slab.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

Encouraged? I did everything but put you on my spam filter. I even have proof of that.

And everyone appreciates you giving them permission to draw their own conclusions. I'm sure they were all upset because until you gave permission I'm sure they felt they HAD to listen to you.

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Posted By: Brian

To my knowledge, Tom has never been kicked off of a message board.

Jim, you have been kicked off of CU how many times? And at LTS at least once? You only started posting here after those two sites were taken away from you.

I have seen this movie many times, it always stars Jim, and it always ends the same. At least you are the focus of the attention Jim, its good to be the star even if the star always dies....

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Posted By: Anonymous

OK, so you expect a dealer would allow Kevin to review the card? Maybe he could do it the first time since it could be done anonymously. But, once he is known it would seem to me that no dealer would give him access. What if he deemed a 5-figure card to be bogus? Even if he's right, what is the dealer supposed to do about that? What would you do about that as the prospective buyer? What would happen to the card? Would you just walk away and let it be another buyer's problem?

I'm just curious because I see this going one of two ways... you guys begin a noble effort to shed light on bad cards and bad dealers for the benefit of the hobby (and other collectors)... or you simply use Kevin as an insurance plan to feel good about your own purchases and damn the next slob that comes along to buy the card should he deem it rotten and you walk away.

In the words of Bill O'Reilly... What say you?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Al- I multiplied, you divided. You can go either way with it.

It's also like being one of the five most foremost people. That's a lot of people, too.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jim,

I read here from time to time, but all I want to know is why are you so obsessed with LTS? It really doesn't make any sense. It's almost like breaking up with a girlfriend in high school, and you just keep on talking about it 20 years later. The funny thing is, no one cares except you it seems.

I think Kevin does indeed have some pretty sharp skills, and I've seen it first hand but the question remains if the demand is there? Kevin... start your business and see how it goes. Overhead can't be a problem, since there really isn't any. Stickers are cheap no? We all know about it, so lets see it. You'll never know unless you try right? I wish you the best of luck with success.

Jim, the relentless cheerleading for Kevin's cause runs hollow unless you back it up with your own cards. That is a simply fact that everyone here seems to get except you. Ultimately some 200+ thread posts later, your original intent of helping Kevin out has turned into another wreck with you pissing all over everyone with things that are pointless to the original thread.

the motivation of this continuing is thus unclear. What ultimately is your goal in this hobby? Why do you feel your opinion so significant?

Kevin... why don't you post? Don't you realize these rants just trivialize what your trying to do? I completely understand your desire to create brand value for your services, but threads like these aren't helping your cause my friend.

Best of luck Kevin,

Jero

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jim, another thought to mull over...

So, here's a scenario... Kevin goes to Andy Madec and he allows him to review a card you are considering buying. Kevin reviews the card and gives it the green light. What then? Does Madec allow him to affix a new tamper evident seal to the slab? Does Kevin use a portable slabbing machine to slab the slab? It seems to me that he'd have to create some tangible, trackable seal of approval for the card so it retains his certification long after it changes hands again and again. Also, what does he do if the card is altered? Does Madec still allow him to seal or slab it with a rejected label? That would seem to be key for other collectors... hang the scarlet letter around the cards that need to be shunned by the backbone of the hobby.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Con40 said it exactly...no dealer is going to allow their cards to be sent to Kevin after the first card gets rejected. If they have no problems selling SGC and PSA slabs why would they make it a little bit harder on themselves by adding another layer of scrutiny when it seems only a hand full of collectors are interested in a service that looks at $5,000+ cards.

I doubt that Kevin could even make it if he decided to start his own grading company even in spite of the fact that he may be the best at detecting alterations....how many people here consider Mike Baker at GAI to be the best???? I hear it nearly everyday in here......yet most of the people making this claim don't have their cards slabbed by GAI.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

So Jim. I read it slow and out loud like you said to three times. I even did it two more times to be safe. THAT'S FIVE TIMES!!!!!

I still don't get it? Why did you give me another stupid idea? And if I'm the slow guy here why doesn't anyone else see the value I can't see?

This lunatic is stumped. Please enlighten me ....I mean us ...on why this service is a no brainer and practical?

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Posted By: Paul

I'll be honest with you, I am at a complete loss how Jim can recommend a service that he has never actually used. It seems to have all the elements of those hollow celebrity endorsements on late night TV pitches. Hey, I wish Kevin all the luck in the world with whatever he does. Free enterprise! If enough people want this service, he'll do well. If not, then he'll fade into oblivion like my franchise for a penile reduction clinic.

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Posted By: MikeU

"my franchise for a penile reduction clinic."

Paul,

Do you have a web address, my situation has created severe back problems for me for years. I would be interested in correcting this.

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Posted By: Joann

Actually, one way this works is if the dealer adds an upcharge to Jim in exchange for allowing a return privilege based on Kevin's opinion.

It compensates the dealer for a slightly higher risk in the sale. He can sell an SGC graded card to X for $5K, or he can sell it to Jim for $5K with the Kevin-return agreement. Why would he not simply sell to X, who is willing to take it for $5K with no conditions? The upcharge makes the added risk (and possible admin related to a return) worth his while.

The question of value added by Kevin's endorsement is also addressed in that the original dealer at least gets some of the additional value (although some should also rightly go to Jim who is paying for the endorsement).

This motivates both people in the supply chain (buyer and seller) to support the use of Kevin's review and endorsement.

Joann

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Okay in reverse order,

Paul,

I am endorsing Kevin as one of the most knowledgeable people of cards I know. He has not filled me in on the details of his venture. I suggest checking his website next week when his up.

GoSox,

Because I want another pair of eyes looking at my expensive cards I buy and I trust Kevin more than anyone.

Dan,

I would be willing to bet a lot of money you are wrong.

Keith,

Don't know. Kevin's word is good with me--a seal would be good over time but I am looking for peace of mind more than a seal. Also you asked before why do I think Kevin is an expert--I have read what he has written on Net54 and on Scott and Jay's board. Also based on what Mike Baker thinks of him.

Anonymous,

If you publish your name I will answer you--if you don't I will assume you are from LTS and just stirring the pot.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

So Joann,

I hear ya and thanks for answering. So do you think this scenario you throw out is (1) practical (would people see the value in paying the fee), (2) fills a need in the hobby, and (3) Kevin is "the man" to fill that need?

Because all three need to be there for a volume based business to succeed. Unless the upcharge is big enough to take away the need for volume. But that kind of upcharge would probably make the service impractical.

I wish Kevin the best of luck. I'm just being honest that I don't think 1, 2, and 3 are there.

You and others may differ in your opinion. So be it.

Life is still great!!

Tom

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Joann,

Several dealers have an inventory of high priced cards that they own. The way a purchase would work is as follows. I call dealer X and ask him to send me a scan of his 1933 Goudey Ruth PSA 8. Card looks fine on the scan so I ask him to mail it to Kevin. I pay mail fee and I pay Kevin's charge. If Kevin comfortable I buy the card. If not I return the card--I am out two mailing fees and Kevin's fee. Dealer owns card still. Contrary to what I think Dan and Keith said I am confident certain dealers would let me do this repeatedly.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Jim, so you see this more as a personal service for you and your collecting goals? I was looking at a bigger picture. Taking my cue from your often-stated mission to clean up the hobby and rid it of bad cards... what would you do about the cards that Kevin rejects? To me, this is a very fundamental issue with his service that could 1) benefit just you, as you seem to be indicating tonight, or 2) benefit the entire hobby, which you have often stated is a goal of yours.

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Posted By: Steve Murray

And I will ask again...what if Kevin deems the card altered?

From what I've read Jim would:

1) Pass on the card; and
2) Allow the card to remain in the market without saying a word.

Now, how does that clean up the hobby?

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, I'm guessing the dealer may not want to go this route because he may have a hard time selling card X if Kevin rejects it...He would be relying on the confidentiality of others to keep that quiet if he is to sell it to JoeSchmo who doesn't require Kevin's stamp of approval. But in that scenario if you keep that quiet then IMO that goes against everything that you previously stated when you first arrived on the Net54 scene to help clean up the problem cards in our hobby. All of this seems self-serving.

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Posted By: leon

Please put your first and last name by your posts and your correct email address...If you don't then you can't post anymore in this thread....Nothing personal at all....same rules for everyone....take care

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Keith,

I have explained this as well but here we go again...

I view this as a personal service for those willing to pay for it. I just explained to Joann Keith what happens to the cards that Kevin has concerns about--they go back to the dealer I bought them from.

I want to help the hobby but this in particular is an initiative to help me from buying bad cards. And just a correction--my goal has not been to rid the hobby of bad cards but to stop the flow of new bad ones into holders.

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Posted By: Sean C

After getting called out for the real reason that you won't have Kevin examine the cards in your collection, that's the best you can come up with: "I know you are, but what am I"

Guess I overestimated you.




================================================

Sean C
(Login schr1st) I don't think it's just me, but... November 19 2007, 7:22 AM


I'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss.


JimCrandell
(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM


Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them.

1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered

2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through.

3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be?

Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones?



Edit Message

JimCrandell
(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 7:40 AM


Sean,

You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss.

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Posted By: Joann

Jim,

Oh - OK. I get it. I was thinking of it more as a return privilege at some undetermined time after purchase - so the dealer may have committed the money elsewhere, passed up another sale, etc while it was being reviewed.

Tom,

I think the answer to each of your three questions, and also the answer to all three collectively, is that the market will decide.

Is it practical? I guess I don't know - I don't run in those financial circles so I'm not sure what is considered practical for a $5000 card. It definitely seems practical to at least one person - Jim - who intends to go that route.

Does it fill a hobby need? Again, I don't know. But intuitively I think it at least gets at a hobby need, if not filling it. There is a general sense that the grading (and authentication) industry needs something that is higher dollar and higher focus in terms of service and review of high end cards specifically for alteration and not just grade. I definitely feel like there is a niche out there that is not being filled by the current players.

Is Kevin the person to do it? Well, this may surprise you, but I don't know. Actually, this question goes along with the first question. If there is a need to be filled, is this the way to go about it and is Kevin the person to do it?

Which brings me back to the market sorting it out. I can't answer the questions, but the market will sort it out.

Personally, I think that the best shot to have it work is to get it to the point where sellers seek Kevin's endorsement. To get to that point, there has to be some value established. If the seal can start to take on perceived value the same way slabs do now, then the selling community will start seeking out the seals and at that point it will take off.

The trick is to get Kevin to that point before the major grading companies decide that there is, in fact, a niche here and offer their own high-end-close-review-super-expert-extra-attention service.

J

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Posted By: John

Until they find out that is what is going on or until you reject the first card.

I'm curious if Kevin or whomever came up with this fantastic idea of grading graded cards has been reading the PCGS coin forums for the past several months.

It seems that there's a group of dealers that have formed a stickering service to sticker coins in PCGS/NGC/ANACS slabs that are "worthy" of their sticker. There was all sorts of hype about this venture and it was dumped on the masses and said to be for the collector and for the good of the hobby.......for a "modest" fee of course.

What a load of Crap. It's good for someone's wallet Period. It's just another (not even good) idea on how to prey upon the fears of collectors and a way to pry more money out of them for yet another service on an already professionally graded coin, which since it is holdered you cannot see the 3rd side, aka the Rim.

The professionally graded coin, much like the card, is backed by a guarantee. What about this almighty card sticker? What sort of guarantee is there? Is there cold hard cash behind it when an error occurs because they do occur.

I have no problem asking some of my friends, whom I know are knowledgeable about a specific series, about a card and sending them a link to the card or forwarding the scans. Those opinions are very valuable to me and all part of friendship.

Sending the card to a person or asking a dealer to send a card to a person so I can get an opinion on it before I buy it is just plain ridiculous.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Dan,

I respect your opinion but I am doing nothing wrong in asking Kevin to look at a prospective card. Most collectors collect for themselves right? As I explained I want the grading companies to toughen grading standards and overall knowledge about altered cards so nthey can identify--I want auction houses to stop taking creases out of cards and reject cards from suspicious people(doctors). I don't think any of my ideas have ever concerned attacking issue of existing altered cards in holders.

Steve,

Who said this was designed to clean up the hobby--why do you think that?

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I hear ya Joann. I think everyone here is actually giving their opinion in one way or another on how they think the market will react. None of us know for sure But many of have been around the hobby long enough to pretty much know.

The day dealers offer that service you mentioned is the day they all admit their other services are garbage. It'll never happen.

What the point of a forum without a good debate, right?

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Posted By: Steve Murray

Jim:

I haven't been on this board as long as you but it seems that "cleaning up the hobby" has been your focus in most every thread you participate in. I seem to recall several threads you started asking the auction houses to sign on to some kind of code of conduct.

Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is just all about you.

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Posted By: Brian

(Third time might be a charm)


Jim,

How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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Posted By: Keith

Leon... thanks for the reminder, but the addy works fine.

Jim, what is a service like this worth to you on a per card basis?

Though your description would seem tailor-made to satisfy your needs, it is somewhat unique as most high-end collectors do purchase through auction houses and it doesn't seem conceivable that your model would work in that arena. Kevin would definitely need an expanded service offering to appeal to as many well-heeled collectors as possible. His business as it is defined by you is more a paid favor than a way to earn a living.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Nobody would think it was unusual if I drove 20 minutes to Parsippany and asked one of Dave's graders to look at a psa card I was thinking of buying from a dealer.

Why is it so unusual to ask the same thing of Kevin--he may know more than an SGC grader--he may know less--not sure. I don't even care about the seal--he looks at it and says yes or no. Maybe this service will be just for me and the LTS collector who currently has Kevin look at his cards. If so--great--if others join in great for Kevin.

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Posted By: Jimcrandell

Keith,

Thats correct. I don't know--have never discussed price--you could ask your LTS friend who pays Kevin what he gives him.

I am switching my buying for high end cards away from the auction houses and toward dealers with inventory.

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Posted By: GoSoxBoSox

I guess I just can't understand why anyone would pay for Kevin's guarantee when the third party grading company guarantee's the card is authentic and unaltered for the cards' full value.

The horse has been thoroughly beaten. I hope I'm wrong Kevin. At least you have one eager customer.

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Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jim, let's say that you use Kevin's service on a PSA 8 Ty Cobb and Kevin rejects the card for evidence of trimming. What do you do with that knowledge? Let's say Jeff Lichtman asks your opinion of the card...do you tell him what you know about it? Do you stand by and watch the dealer sell the card to someone else? Are you not morally obligated to at least inform the hobby that this card exists in a graded holder?

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Posted By: Brian

(4th time might be a charm)


Jim,

How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

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Posted By: MW

I think we're talking about two different concepts here.

The first is Jim getting a private opinion on a card from someone he trusts. There are many well-known collectors who do this. I see no inherent problem -- isn't Jim just as entitled as everyone else to use an additional set of eyes that are better trained than his at authenticating and detecting possible alterations and/or overgrades?

The second is employing a company or individual to validate an already graded card. In this case, there may exist a burden of liability on the company/individual providing the service in those situations where a grading company's opinion is rejected in favor of someone else's "more qualified" opinion. This would be especially crucial in situations where the card was of considerable value. Again, as previously mentioned, this type of service would need to be backed with some type of financial guarantee.

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Posted By: Frank Evanov

Jim: "Why is it so unusual to ask the same thing of Kevin--he may know more than an SGC grader--he may know less--not sure."

With all due respect Jim....how can you trust your cards to a guy who might know less than an SGC grader?? You clearly admit you're not even sure how Kevin stacks up versus a professional, yet you're willing to trust him with high dollar purchases??

Basement experiments with bleaching and soaking does not make him an expert on anything...except maybe laundry.



Frank

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Posted By: Charlie Barokas

Dan,

What is the moral obligation? If Kevin renders an opinion in conflict with an opinion of a professional third party grading company, does that make Kevin's opinion correct and the third party grading company's opinion wrong?

I think we have to be careful annoiting a person omniscient who has no experience grading baseball cards professionally. I think the professional grading service has the advantage in seeing the card out of the holder whereas Kevins opinion would come from the outside looking in.

If GAI and Mike Baker are endorsing Kevin 100% as Jim says, why don't they join forces to try and reinvigorate GAI?

For Kevin to be successful he has to be affiliated with a grading company or start his own with a written gurantee and the financial means to backup his opinion.

To simply state that he is comfortable or uncomfortable with a graded card being un-altered is not very potent.

I think an independent operator would also have major liabilities trying to profit from deeming other grading companies cards altered in the holder.

CB

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Posted By: bugontherug

<<<Jim,

How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)? >>>>

Let's see.......

1) booted off PSA for continued dissing PSA, even when warned. Reinstated when given an award. Then transformed into PSA cheerleader.

2) booted off LTS twice. (Oh well, maybe splitting hairs as he may have quit one of those times as he outran the arrows directed his way.)

3) continues the trend on Net54. Lessons seemingly never learned.


Please note: story's such as 'bye-bye Brian', 'GAI/Mike Baker crossover club party'......oh well, you get the idea.

Jim's resume in above matters is spectacular. No one in the hobby does it better than Jim.

Take Care........Bug

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Posted By: Wesley

<<I'll be honest with you, I am at a complete loss how Jim can recommend a service that he has never actually used.>>

Is this true? If Jim has never had Kevin look at a single card, then he has no idea what Kevin can or cannot do. How in the world can he start a thread like this endorsing a service he knows nothing about? This is just another pathetic attempt by Jim to direct attention to himself again rather than a sincere endorsement. Congratulations Jim. You have succeeded in wasting everyone's time once again.