756*

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Posted By: Steve f

He did it for ego, more money, and fame.

He sure didn't do it for the fans or the sport.

Cmr Saltlick, by his clever Giambi "pardon" is setting the precedent for inaction when Bonds is subpoenaed.

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Posted By: peter chao

Giambi is not only getting pardoned, it's starting to look like he will be the only major league player deposed by Sen. Mitchell. Talk about a rinky-dink investigation.

Peter C.

Edited to add: Actually, I got to hand it to MLB, getting Congress to allow them to investigate themselves. That's like allowing Enron to do their own investigation into the violation of SEC regulations.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Peter, in the rinky dink investigation how many other MLB players voluntarily agreed to speak to Mitchell? Did Mitchell have subpoena power?

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

Sometimes I wish you were less an attorney and more of a hobbyist. You already know the answers to the questions you are posing.

What I'm objecting to is the process. After that congressional hearing where McGwire, Sosa, and Palmeiro stonewalled Congress, our legislators could have subpoenaed more witnesses to get to the bottom of the scandal. But instead they went into this sweetheart deal with MLB and Bud Selig which allowed them to do their own investigation.

Bud Selig went into damage control mode and made sure the investigation would be "toothless." And he even used the prestige of Senator Mitchell's name to make it look like it was a legitimate investigation.

Peter C.

Edited to add: Both MLB and the Players have a vested interest in keeping a lid on the steroid controversy. Jason Giambi in a very contrite AP press release today said that he was a small piece of a big puzzle. In other words he is only the "tip of the iceberg." I do believe it may be 10 years before we get the full picture.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

And Peter, sometimes I wish you were more of a lawyer than....well, whatever it is you are.

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Posted By: peter chao

In a strange way, I take that as a compliment, I never thought that I would be practicing 25+ years. I keep telling myself I'm simply in transition...but I haven't found my second career yet. So until I find it, I try to get more involved with the hobby.

Net54 has been a plus for me and I've enjoyed being part of the Board. I know I'm off the wall at times, but I don't do it intentionally.

Barry is a special case, and as much as we would all like the steroid controversy to die, it isn't going to. There's simply too much that is unknown about it. Absent a controversial book in the near future, we are going to continue finding out details in little bits and pieces.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Cobby33

This nonsense with Bonds will pan out the same way that the Bill Clinton witch hunt ended. Clinton ended his presidency as one of the most popular presidents in modern times. (If you don't think that's a bi-partisan statement, just look at the money he's making public speaking and selling books). After all the BS about his personal life and his "perjured" testimoy blew over, none of it mattered and his critics found someone else to pick on.

Same thing will happen with Bonds. He will retire one of the best baseball players ever and after the BS with the steroids (true or not) blows over, there will be something else to whine about.

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Posted By: davidcycleback

Difference is Clinton's public approval ratings were high before and throughout the impeachment proceedings, and a majority of the public did not consider the Lewinsky affair & Lie to be an offense worthy of impeachment. Bonds' approval ratings are low and a majority of sports fans consider an athlete using steroids a major offense if not a death knell.

If Bonds had cheated on his wife and lied about it to a judge, most fans wouldn't consider it an impeachable offense.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

David, I agree with you. Bonds was hated due to his behavioral issues well before his steroid use hit the public domain. Remember that Joe Jackson and the rest of the Black Sox were acquitted in a court of law -- no matter what happens with Bonds' legal problems he will be forever tainted to some degree.

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Posted By: Cobby33

The only "behavioral issues" that Bonds has had, were/are borne out of his refusal to kiss the media's ass. He has otherwise stayed out of trouble- more so than most athletes who get arrested, convicted and are still popular with the media and with fans.

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Posted By: peter chao

In the long run the refusal to kiss the media's ass never hurt Ted Williams. But there was a time when it was touch and go for the Splendid Splinter.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cobby, Bonds has forever treated everyone around him badly -- whether it be the fans, his teammates (remember Sweeney?), his family, etc., etc. You make it sound as if the public's poor perception of Bonds is due solely to the media, which it is not. The character and behavioral issues which separate Bonds from Hank Aaron is precisely the reason Aaron is beloved and Bonds is hated.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Ted Williams was certainly given the cold shoulder by the media and fans throughout his career. He was only given the respect he deserves well after he retired. During his career, fans had spit on him and had otherwise treated him like dirt.

With regard to Bonds, being a lifelong Giants fan, I can't say Bonds has every disrespected me personally, or as a fan. Then again, I've never asked him for an autograph of tried to befriend him. I think it's the people who try to cross the line between spectator and "friend," who may have been hurt by Bonds' reclusive nature. I cannot remember anything he has ever done which is affirmatively offensive to fans in general.

I don't know which family members he has ever treated badly and the only run-in he has ever has with a teammate was with Jeff Kent. Go figure. With regard to Sweeney, I think the two of them resolved their differences (which were never truly clear), so who are we to judge?

Although I am a huge Giants fan, I'm far from a Bonds fan and even so, I can objectively say he hasn't been given a fair shake.

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

zzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz. Can you keep it a little quieter, I'm trying to sleep!!!! ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

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Posted By: peter chao

Ken,

Wake up Barry just hit HR 760.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Cobby33

zzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz zzzzzzzzzz.

Stellar contribution!

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Posted By: Ken McMillan

Peter,

I just checked my controlled substance drawer and there is a bottle of winstrol missing. Guess Barry was here to steal it. Well have to call the DEA to report it missing......WOW, the Cubs are in first, must be dreaming.....ZZZZZZZZZZZZambrano Go Cubbies

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Posted By: Andrew

The ball is going to auction near the end of the month. I still don't think it will sell for $500,000 considering the "hype" around Barry.

Andrew

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Posted By: David Smith

"Kirk Radomski, who pleaded guilty in U.S. District Court in April to felony charges of distributing steroids and laundering money, met recently with former Senate Majority Leader George Mitchell, according to the report. He faces up to 25 years in prison and a $500,000 fine at his sentencing, scheduled for Sept. 7."

The following is a quote from Steve Phillips;

"I was often accused of being in the Mets' clubhouse too much during my years as general manager (1997-2003). I have to admit that I am hoping that there aren't any of my former players outed by this process as it would indicate that not only was I in the clubhouse too much but that I was also deaf and blind.".

Again, I ask why is Steve Phillips still employed by ESPN and allowed to give his opinion on the steroids scandal??

A Clubhouse employee has plead guilty to distributing steroids and Steve Phillips has admitted to being in the Clubhouse "too much". Can anyone say conflict o interest?? Same with Dusty Baker.

Ths is similiar to Dave Bushing owning and authenticating items while working for MEARS and then consigning them to Mastro. Mastro uses MEARS for third party opinions which are supposed to be unbiased but the main person at MEARS is authenticating and then consigning items to Mastro??

David

PS. This is the last I have to say about the steroid scandal because it upsets me too much. I say this because cheaters are cheaters and they are ruining baseball.

Board members will condemn other board members for possibly altering a card or cards but give Barry Bonds (among others) a free pass. Newbies will come on here with stories of finds and get crucified for little or no reason yet admitted cheats get cut slack.

All I have to say is remember the caution given about worshipping false idols.

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Posted By: jay behrens

Dave, you better just quit following sports and collecting cards because most players in every sport cheat in one way or another.

Jay

The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: Cobby33

Perhaps if we spent more time enjoying the game/hobby and less time worrying about the conspiracy theories and getting depressed about how nothing is perfect, we wouldn't get heartburn over all this BS.

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Posted By: CobbTigers

It is tainted and Aaron is still the home run king

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Posted By: David

I don't know if this is o/t but it does have something to do with #756

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=180149811969&indexURL=0&photoDisplayType=2#ebayphotohosting

Matt Murphy tried to sell the jersey he wore while he caught the home run ball...

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Posted By: Ted Zanidakis

Cobby33

Ted Williams was cheered by everyone most of his career......but, was jeered by the Boston fans and their media.
I've been an avid Yankee fan since 1947 and I watched a lot games that Williams played. I, and many Non-Boston
fans, rooted for him. Why not....his name was Ted....and he was tremendous.
He was admired and respected by many during the years from 1941 to 1960. I saw him hit quite a few HR's into
the upper RF stands at Yankee Stadium and I was happy for him. After all, it didn't make a difference at the end
of the season....the Yankees won just about every year, anyhow.

TED Z

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Posted By: peter chao

Kirk Radomski probably hasn't said beans implicating major league executives or trainers. If he had, New York media would have been all over the story by now.

It's clear from what both Tony Gwynn and Jason Giambi have said so far that Bud Selig and MLB executives knew about the steroid problem and failed to act. The players are the fall guys and it will be 5-10 years before we find out about the extent of MLB's involvement in the steroid controversy.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Thanks for that factual update. Does that mean you won't post about this for another 5-10 years?

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Posted By: peter chao

Jeff,

Of course not, but there will be nothing really interesting to post about until a player or executive is ready to spill the beans. It's not likely an executive will because he will be ostracized.

It's not likely a player will if they're interested in endorsements or continuing their association with MLB.

So it's going to take a while before there is significant news.

Peter C.

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Posted By: Jason L

call someone who committed a crime (such as taking or distributing illiegal drugs) a "fall guy." He isn't taking a fall on behalf of someone else if he did the crime.

I only hope that in the years to come that we aren't also calling him a "Hall guy," but I know better than to think that the world will see it quite as altruistically as I tend to...

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Posted By: Cobby33

Canseco already spilled the beans and the public chose to believe what they wanted to believe. Note that even Canseco never implicated Bonds, yet some segments of the population have chosen to believe that he's the worst out there.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Cobby, Canseco never played with Bonds; that's why he never had the chance to implicate him. Somehow I doubt that Jose believes that Bonds is not on the juice -- hell, Bonds doesn't believe that he's not on the juice!

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Posted By: peter chao

Jason, Cobby

Canseco has spilled the beans about other players, but I'm really talking about Bud Selig and MLB executives. Nobody has "spilled the beans" about their role in this sordid mess.

Peter C.

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Posted By: dennis

peter you said..."The players are the fall guys and it will be 5-10 years before we find out about the extent of MLB's involvement in the steroid controversy."
explain how players taking illegal drugs can be "fall guys"
mlb involvement? the players were protected by their union so they could not be tested from what i understand?

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Posted By: peter chao

Dennis,

I consider the players to be "fall guys" because they are taking all the blame, when in fact they are only partially at fault here. The owners have always been in control of the situation simply because they are the ones that write the checks.

If the owners wanted to they could have and should have begun mandatory testing long ago, but instead they did not want to battle the player's union because they were making money from all the homers and TV contracts. The owners let the almighty dollar control their decisions and let the average baseball fan down.

Peter C.

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Posted By: leon

Saying the players weren't at fault for taking the steroids is like saying that because I accidentally left my keys in my car then I am at fault for someone stealing it. I might have made a mistake but I am not a thief....The owners could have had more testing but it's still the players fault they were taking the drugs....

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Posted By: dennis

peter your thought process amazes me. the players take the drugs so they can enhance their performance(ie. stats) and make more money and you blame the owners for this? the union is so strong that the owners can not touch the players and yet you still make the players the fall guy. please,explain???

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Posted By: peter chao

Dennis,

All I'm saying is the owners are equally responsible for this sordid mess. Also, I believe this distribution of fault is charitable, actually I'm speculating that they are more than 50% at fault.

Even before steroid testing, most player contracts had provisions which forbid players from using drugs, however, the owners have seldom enforced these provisions because they did not want their players angry at them.

Now if the owners had come down hard on their players when these contract provisions were violated, I'm sure the players would have cleaned up their act much faster.

Peter C.

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Posted By: leon

I hope you would never argue that reasoning in court. I can see it now

"Your Honor...The reason my client stole Mr.Luckey's car is because he left the keys in it accidentally. It is therefore Mr.Luckey's fault"

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Posted By: peter chao

I know what you are saying, if the owners' conduct was accidental I would certainly blame them less. But that is the whole point...their conduct is not accidental.

The owners worship the dollar and the prestige that comes with being baseball franchise owners so they purposely failed to act even though they knew they should have.

Bud Selig with his hands in his pockets while Barry Bonds hit 755 is the perfect symbol of "let's don't rock the boat."

The facts will come out in the next 5-10 years and maybe you guys will see the accuracy of my theory.

Peter C.

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Posted By: dennis

peter do you really believe that if an owner suspected a player was on performance enhancing drugs he could void a contract? be serious, the players union wanted more $$$ as a concession to drug testing. it is only since the u.s.congress has stepped in that they have budged. giambi has admited to doing steroids and still is a yankee,he has a huge contract which the yankees cannot void or else his worthless ass would be long gone and his contract void. peter you act as if these players are race horses whom the owners totally own and manipulate so as to put money in their pocket.yes the owners are greedy but the players along with their union protecting them is where the blame should start.

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Posted By: Jason L

Look, are you saying that it would be MY fault if my 5 year old son hit my 2 year old son, -because I was negligent by not preventing it through some use of restraint mechanism that would disable my 5 year old's arms, thereby providing an environment in which the 2 year old could be struck?
or perhaps it is my 2 year old son's fault because he allowed my 5 year old to hit him? - walked right into the oncoming hand, for instance?

This is bizarre logic.

I say it's my 5 year old son's fault. Nobody else's. He did it.

So, Leon would be blamed for his car being stolen, and have to go down to DMV to sign over the title and registration to the thief, and say "My bad, here ya go!"

I know what you are trying to say, but I think it is a stretch to put the players and the league officials in the same boat here...but you're right, we'll see in due time.

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Posted By: peter chao

This will start another minor argument. What do you think of Curt Flood's new book, "A Well-Paid Slave." Personally, I haven't read it, but I have perused it and makes the same argument I have already made. The owners have created the market and the players merely respond to it.

The owners have a more tangible nexus to the problem. MLB trainers and team doctors, they see the stars everyday, are you telling me that they didn't know the players were using all types of drugs? I don't believe it, if I was paying Jose Canseco millions of dollars, I would want to know who his friends are. I would know his training regimen, his health, even the number of times he went to the bath room.

The reason why ML owners didn't jump on players for violating their contracts was simply, "boys will be boys."

Peter C.

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Posted By: Anonymous

Curt Flood died ten years ago. The book may be about him but it is not his book.