About soaking cards

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Posted By: jackgoodman

What Al and Peter just said.

Can we all go get a beer now?

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I also have some high grade sets on the Registry. The only diffence is they are really TOUGH sets. However some of my sets aren't slabbed at all and no one with any amount of money could come close to duplicating them. They are the truely rare baseball cards that the vast majority of this board apprieciates.


Scott

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

Do not why you are so nasty but you are truly uninformed about graded card collecting and particularly high end graded card collecting.

Try to collect some of the sets in psa 8 and better. Good luck. Commodities--ha!

Who said I want to collect a rarity. Maybe I want to collect sets from the years I grew up in in psa 8 or psa 9 wherre the cards look sharp and I don't get sick by looking at the creases etc. And since I love the hobby I want to collect pre-war sets in high grade.

Let someone else collect the rarities--nothing wrong with it--just not my thing.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I appreciate them too--I am on this board primarily to learn and I have learned a lot.

But doesn't mean that I want to collect them.

Jim

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Posted By: scott brockelman

more so than you think. Not trying to be nasty, just eye opening perhaps. All is not as it may seem inside your little plastic world.

Collect on and enjoy.

Scott

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Posted By: John S

Jim,

I was not implying that you do not enjoy collecting. I was just responding to your earlier comments. I truly respect your preferences to collect whatever you want. If I had the money to purchase PSA 8 T-cards I would use it to buy as many GD-VG examples as possible. That is my preference. As others have stated however, your concerns (which are by no means invalid) do not affect the majority of individuals on this board.

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

I feel like a mediator.

Jim, one thing Scott is most definitely NOT is lacking knowledge about graded cards. Scott is one of the most knowledgeable guys out there.

Scott, I think Jim collects cards from the eras he watched as a boy, which precludes a lot of rarities. I don't think it makes his collection less legitimate. Building 100 sets where every card is a PSA 8 or better is extraordinarily difficult in its own right, and requires a great deal of diligence.

Personally, I prefer scarcity over condition. But that's just me. That's what's so cool about this hobby - I can learn from a guy like Jim, and he can learn from a guy like Scott, and everyone can be better for it, provided we're willing to accept that there's more than one way to do this hobby.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Hi Al,

Thanks for jumping in. Sorry--I get the urge to tell it like it is or at least how I think it is.

I disagree with you about the T206 psa 8s were once glued to pages but at least I know that you and I can disagree without an attack or people presuming why I act a certain way. And I respect your point of view on soaking just like I respect others--I just completely disagree.

When are we going out to dinner and a ball game--the Nets are not looking too good recently.

JIm

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I don't know why you have to be so nasty--

Good luck--in my view there is a tremendous amount of card alteration in your low condition ungraded pre-warr world and there is no need to insult collectors of graded cards.

You obviously know a lot about rare cards and apparently do not care about the grade.

However many many sets I collect are extraordinarily tough in high grade and I think having a psa 10 1941 Play Ball is more exciting than a poor-fair card of a rarity.

Jim

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Sure we can disagree. As long as you realize that I'm right.

The Nets have been a nightmare. I've been spending more time in the bar than I have in my seat.

Then again, I do that when the Nets are doing well, too.

-Al

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Barry,

Sorry I have not responded to you yet but if I found an album of T206 cards glued in a holder I would certainly not remove them as it goes against everything I believe and secondly I would probably sell it immediately to a person who promised not to take the cards out of their album and alter/restore the cards from their current condition. If noone would make this promise I would keep it myself in this condition.

Secondly I have found that for 1948-68 and probably before that high grade collectors are more passionate about the hobby than low grade collectors but there are some pretty passionate people around here.

Again just an opinion--if few agree with me at the end of the day, so be it.

Jim

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I am fully aware of problems in all grades of vintage cards, HOWEVER I can detect most of them. SO I am safe with my acquistions. I do not collect P-F cards, I collect scarce to very rare cards in the highest obtainable condition.


Again I am not being nasty, just trying to point out another collecting interest to you that is by far the driving force behind vintage cards increasing in price, not PSA 8's from post war sets.

Scott

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Posted By: Al C.risafulli

Scott, am I to understand from your prior post that you have three T206 Planks?

-Al

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Everyone else is right and I am wrong. Nice preface I'm hoping everyone agrees!
I just have one thing I would love to do, and that is make contact with a couple of the foremost paper conservators to ask their opinion on soaking card (as opposed to stamps, or other paper forms). Find out if my ramblings about higher water retention and any effects long term on the paper make sense, or are merely ramblings.
Anyone have recommendations of people of real note in that industry...I know a couple of excellent people - but not major names or those whose word and work carries prestige in the area. I would love to just shoot them off a quick email asking the simple question:

What's your opinion on the effects long term to a piece of card used for printing advertising (say between the years 1880 - 1945), of soaking, and then drying that card between blotting paper (feel free anyone to tell me other forms of drying material you would prefer inserted here) and being pressed between some heavy books for a few days to complete the drying process......

Would anyone else be interested in just the science and knowledge behind the practice, or is it just me?


Daniel

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I still have 2 of the 3.

See still seeking quality over quantity. And thanks for moderating the ongoing debate.

Scott

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Posted By: T206Collector

Daniel,

Finally, someone is trying to add logic to this argument. I really appreciate that. Please let me know what you find.

Paul

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Examples of Scott not being nasty:

"People like yourself are the reason some people alter cards"

"you are willing to pay ridiculous prices to satisfy your ego without learning what you are buying"

"uneducated collector"

"pop in tens of thousands and each card has a pop in the hundreds.

Well that sounds nasty to me and you should apologize!

And I never brag about my collection on this board. You have no right to question my knowledge or presume why I buy cards--as Al or anyone would tell you who collects graded cards I rarely overpay and am very careful what I spend.

Jim

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Posted By: scott brockelman

need I remind you of Jay Berens, my comments pale in comparison. I am merely trying to open your eyes to another HUGE segment of the hobby

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

You have an unusual style of opeing ones eyes--insult someone repeatedly you have never met before and miraculously they will see the light.

And I was trying to educate you too.

Jim

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Following up on my post re asking paper conservators their opinions on soaking, I'm throwing out a couple of names I might give a try:

http://www.graphicconservation.com/

http://www.paconservatory.com/paper.aspx

http://www.garageannexschool.com/instructor_show.php?id=26



Any opinions or suggestions for other expert opinion?



Daniel

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Jim, I appologize to you if you took anything I said as a personal attack.

So how do I shout down that statement about "backbone of the hobby" and the one about hobby and investment... Can't use words like foolish or worse...


If you want an investment, go check out some of the Franklin Funds. Or spend money on a child's education. For us, this is a hobby. And I am confident that PSA 8s aren't the backbone.

Taking a thought from another thread, I took my Standard Catalog with me a few minutes ago, and looked at the Acknowledgments page. Lots of names there. Lots of folks here. I don't know all of the folks here. Brockleman, Goodman, Luckey, Macrae, Sloate, me, Warshaw, Zanidakis are listed. And a few other folks I've met who I don't see posting here, Ewing, Goodwin, Koehler, Lipset... I really don't think any of those guys focus on PSA -8s. And I do think those guys are some of the hobby's vertebrae. Alan Rosen is in the Acknowledgments, he might collect PSA 8 stuff, I just don't know. Always turned and walked the other way when I saw him at shows.


What I would really like to know is if T Bob is glad that he soaked his Zeenut. Bob, if you're still out there, how do you feel about it now? Was it ok?? Not the madness of this thread, but the unaltering of that altered Zeenut you bought... how was that.

Peace, Jim. And sincerely, I intended nothing personal. It is/was all focused at that idea.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

Jim,

I hate to tell you this, but you bring so much of this upon yourself. You start these threads with your personal agenda deeply rooted in your mind and want to argue with the other 99% of the board.

Once again. WE DON'T SEE IT YOUR WAY.

occasionally you pick up a friend for the ride, but by and far you are bucking the mainstream.

Scott

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Posted By: Dan Koteles

and if the backbone of the hobby were affixed to 60's, 70's in 8 holders , why is this PRE WAR site hit with many posters and lurkers by the THOUSANDS daily ?...certainly isnt for the Joe Morgan RC in a boring 8 holder.

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Posted By: barrysloate

Daniel- a trained paper conservator could soak cards out of an album without doing any damage to them. They are taught the proper techniques. They would use a solution that would not hurt the cards, and would actually remove any acids that could destroy the paper over the long term. Many work on restoring and repairing rare documents and photographs, so taking a card out of an album would be a slow day for them.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

I can see you are not apologizing for attacking me--it speaks poorly of you--go attack away--would you like me to tell me some more things about me so you can continue to demean me???

Or why don't you keep bragging about your cards.

I love how you try to take comfort in that you are in the majority and try to isolate me--you are a pretty insecure guy.

Good luck

JIm

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

I didn't view Scott's post as bragging, but rather as explainging what he collects.

One of the things I collect are the Metro Studio photos. No PSA 8s out there on those. I have a mailing envelope for them that might be a PSA 0.5 Realistically I try to refrain from collecting anything slabbed. I'm the slimy belly of the hobby.

Claiming to collect only PSA 8 stuff seemed a bit more like bragging to me, than Scott's post did.

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Posted By: scott brockelman

I never insulted you in any way. I brought to light that which you choose to collect, are you embarassed in some way. You need not be, there are many that appreciate your collection. You have just chosen to bring it to the wrong forum.



Do not try to make this personal, it's not.

Scott

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Posted By: E, Daniel

Barry,
I'm not interested so much in whether a paper conservator can successfully remove a card from a scrapbook, but more what their opinion is on submerging/soaking a card in water and drying it in ways mentioned in this thread.
Those are two different things in my expectation. I would fully believe that he/she has specialist tools, chemicals, and proffessional knowledge that he would apply when undertaking the task. I actually don't believe he would ho hum the job if paid for such a removal, but would do all the necessary fact finding to understand what he was working with and apply the correct measures.

I am far more interested in what a conservator would think of Joe Shmo taking his 75+ year old cards and tossing them in the bath tub, and drying them with books and absorbent materials, and whether a process like that would have a longer term effect than might be initially realized.

Kind regards
Daniel

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

PSA8 = Backbone of the hobby
PSA7 = Shoulder of the hobby
PSA6 = Elbow of the hobby
PSA5 = Kneecap of the hobby
PSA4 = Foot of the hobby
PSA3 = Heel of the hobby
PSA2 = Toe of the hobby
PSA1 = Tailbone of the hobby

I'm pretty much between foot and elbow most of the time......
Occasionally a heel (at least so my wife says).....
Rarely a toe....

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Posted By: Judson Hamlin

You all get a time out. This is like watching my seven year old and four year old snipe at one another over sensless nothings, and then tattletale on each other.
We all have our niche in this hobby/business and whether it is the type of card, grade of card, player or whatever other criterea we all look for, as long as we enjoy our own little corner of it all, why do we have to pee in each other's Wheaties? I've never soaked a card, mostly out of fear that I would damage it and I wouldn't be able to enjoy it, but the thought that I may have bought a soaked card doesn't infuriate me. I can see how a collector/investor, operating in a higher end than I, would want that information as part of the decision-making process. Restoration is an acccepted and often necessary element of preserving documents and books, and many early works have been lost due to deterioration of inks or from decompostion due to the acid content of paper, especially in the 19th century. Any restoration work, whether to a comic book or a 17th century map is generally noted by sellers and goes into the buyer's personal calculation as to value and desireability. There are buyers who would rather have a worm-holed original than a reinforced, restored, more pristine copy of the same document and vice versa. Not good/bad or right/wrong.

You can come out of your rooms now, but no poking.

edited for long weekend grammar. And stay on your side of the forum.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

He's looking at me.

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Scott,

You have a convenient way of forgetting your own insults which I conveniently summarized and repeatedly trying to make this a Jim vs the board scenario--how sad.

I have a substantial prewar collection and I would be pleased to talk about it but unlike you i am not going to brag about it.

You need to open your eyes a little Scott and express your views without insulting others.

Again you could apologize and that would be the end of it.

Jim

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

You forgot:

PSA 9 The Brains of the Hobby

PSA 10 The Head of the Hobby

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

'whats next for the hobby' policing activities, jury's still out on heads and brains at the PSA9/PSA10 level.......

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Tom,

Dinner after the first of the year with Barry, Mike, Jay.Al, Wonka me and hopefully Paul unless i pissed him off too much tonight.

I am going to try to build a consensus even though I am told i have strong views.

After dinner there are a number of people outside NYC who want to be involved in fixing the hobby. We will handle this through phone calls.

We will poll people on Net54 on what we are deciding along the way.

Jim

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

As amazing as it may seem to some, people outside of NYC eat, too....


And someone has their PSA 10 stuck so far up their PSA 0 that they can't see reality.

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Posted By: DJ

Daniel,

No where did I attack you, nor should you have attacked my questions with your immature (not surprising) response. "Sound all that endowed - with knowledge?" That's a laugher. Maybe I'm trying to better understand what kind of a collector you are and see where you are coming from.

A lot of us began collecting maybe before you were born (who knows, I don't know you) and this thread is simply maddening as over the past month, the triple figure threads have been heated debates where, well, a lot of us simply think the "ilovepsa8" club is simply insane in the way they view the current hobby. Too each is own, collect what you will.

Of course, all the hobby vets (and posters) are full of crap because they differ with your view, right?

This thread was started by a gentlemen wanting advice and turned into soaking versus non-soaking procedures and if it lead to that, so fine, be it, if so it should be answered once and only once and it should not be nasty.

What do you think of soaking?
1) It's fine.
2) I don't like it...it's not fine
End of story.

I put my opinion (1) and let it be.

DJ

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Posted By: Tom Boblitt

if 'fixing the hobby' meant exposing 25% of your PSA8 cards had been altered, what would be your solution? Would it be worth that 'hit' to you cards. If they were exposed as altered would you sell them? Would you disclose it? Purely hypothetical, of course. Interested in your answers.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

25% sounds like an underestimated, to me... a sharp cornered tobacco card almost certainly was flourpasted to a scrapbook. Now my Johnson ready to pitch with rounded corners and a pinhole at the top, that guy hasn't been stretched, bleached, nor built up; and soaking is doubtful. Seems to me that almost all PSA 8s and PSA brains and PSA heads would have been soaked. Maybe stretched and micotrimmed, too. So a fellow collecting only PSA 8s, brains and heads would most certainly be collecting only altered cards. Might be likely that a fellow with that collecting style would have more altered cards in his collection than I have in mine. But he'd never beleive it.

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Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Is this thread the most tiresome since the NY dinner thread?

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Posted By: JimCrandell

Only when Frank and DJ chime in--especially frank who does his best to get his digs in at me with every single post--get a life Frank.

Don't know nor do I care about how many cards I have that are altered--as eberyone has told me impossible to know so I am happy--especially with the huge prices psa 8s are going for in pre-war which is all of my pre-war collection except for maybe 40 9s and a couple of 10s. don't want to buy any more though.

Jim

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Posted By: JK

"Papers worst enemy is fire."

I know it was posted a while ago, but man was that a funny post.

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Posted By: JK

"were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed."

MV - I have to disagree. I have had specific discussions with one particular grading company about this issue and was told they had no problem with soaking in water. Perhaps they were only saying that because they know its undetectable, but I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is because the grading companies continue to grade cards with obvious attempts to erase pencil marks - in other words, they grade cards that you undoubtably would consider altered with knowledge of the alteration - which begs the question: Do they really believe it to be an alteration. Here is a card I used to own - a good example as it had pencil marks on the reverse that someone clearly tried to erase at some point in time, yet there it is, sitting in a slab:

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Posted By: cmoking

Scott wrote: "I still have 2 of the 3, sold one of them, FOR A REASON that many will be shocked by, it had been ALTERED!, I bought it in a holder from a world renowned auction house. And apparently neither cared that a paper wrinkle had been partially spooned out. "

Wow! How come no one followed up on this? This is the most interesting part of this whole thread.

Scott, can you give us details, please?
- which auction hosue sold it?
- which card is it?
- how could you tell about the paper wrinkle being partially spooned out? do you have a scan? I'm trying to understand the wording: if it was fully spooned out, does that mean it would be undetectable? So when you say partially spooned out, does that mean the unwrinkling job was a poor one? Or does that mean the wrinkle came back? Or does it mean something else?

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Posted By: barrysloate

Just to be the first on Monday morning to continue this maddening thread:

Jeff- the NYC dinner thread is still the Rolls Royce of all Net54 threads; it has reached mythic proportions, like Dimaggio's hitting streak or Wilt's 100 point game- it's simply untouchable.

DJ- anytime you go to the main board and see a triple digit response you know a brawl is in the making. You don't even have to read it.

Daniel- no, a paper conservator would not approve of throwing a acrapbook in a bathtub and pressing cards between blotter paper and a book, although what he would do would resemble that process. He would just use the proper solutions as per his training.

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Posted By: Dylan

I didnt read every post but many... anyways i understand getting residue off a card, but from what ive gathered you can soak a card to actually lengthin it? How does that work, and how much length can be added?

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Posted By: T206Collector

What people are saying is that if you press a card hard enough, its edges would theoretically lengthen, thus giving you an opportunity to trim it back to the right size, this time with sharper edges/corners.

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Posted By: Frank Wakefield

Well I just got done with some soaking. 2 1933 Goudey cards. I'd been told years ago, by a very wise experienced collector who used to put scrapbook pages in a bathtub at night so the cards would be off by morning, anyway he said Goudeys wouldn't soak well. Dan Mc told me they would soak just fine. Dan was right. Paper scrap is gone from the back of Sam Rice, I can read the green print!!! And gobs of altering paste are now gone from Red Lucas. Thank you, Dan, thank you water.

Now if I can find my Combs Goudey, it was almost solid paste, the card was twice its normal thickness. He needs a soaking. He'd been segregated because of the paste, and I've misplaced him. With a good soaking I can unalter him back to his original state and put him with his fellow Goudeys.

And I got an email from Rob, the daddy of this post. I asked him how he now felt about his soaking experience (the card, not this monsterous thread), and he said, "Hi Frank, yes very satisfied. Bob" Another soaker swells our ranks! Might get T-shirts printed for the National, with a T206 half imursed in a glass of water.


And a final last thought, since I'll read but post no more here... The grading companies LOVE soaking. Think it through. Who'll grade a card with scrapbook on the back? Hardly anyone. But after soaking, the companies will have many more cards being sent in for grading. They truly love it. Where will the PSA 8s come from if not for soaking???

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Posted By: Dan KOteles

steaming to many veggies over the sewer holes ?.....and dont you's
pronounce "New York ", "New Yuk" ?

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Posted By: barrysloate

It's more like "New Yawk", but I'm from Brooklyn. We have our own language.