Slightly Off Topic-TBob is this Near You?

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

Come on Scott ... N54 is double standard land? ... NAH!

In my youth I heard about cock fights, but it wasn't my bag.
I understand what CalleOcho is saying, and I agree with him.
Even though it's not my bag, I also understand what Scott is saying, and I commend him for being honest and straight forward, regardless of whether it's my bag, or not.

What boggles my mind, borders on the super natural, and throws this topic into another dimension of the third kind:
Are the words from the Honorable attorney from the East Coast.
You know the one.
The one that's always taking shots across the bow of the good ship HMS Peter C.

If you have been following the coast to coast adventures of Lord Jeff and Peter C. ... you will note that in the beginning of the Coast to Coast Attorney's run off, Lord Jeff had a comfortable and strong 3 length lead.
Since then, he has remarkably driven it ... to neck and neck.

And this is one of the reasons why.

Lord Jeff's oratorical summation before the N54 Jury.
Lord Jeff speaks:

"Ahh..I see. Let's equate the fun of watching two chickens ripping each other apart with betting on football games.

And since animals have no rights we can do whatever we want to them. Have sex with them? Torture them? Why not? They're not humans. How about black people? Remember when slavery was legal? Blacks were not thought of as human by plenty of people. Does that mean that it was morally right to enslave others? Scott, there's a reason that cockfighting is illegal across the country except, incredibly, in two states: it's amoral. And uncivilized. There's no good argument for it. And at least with Leon's crime people who buy drugs usually have a brain and the willpower to say no. Chickens tossed in a ring to slice each other to ribbons don't usually have the ability to Just Say No.

And finally, why would you want to watch helpless animals kill each other? What joy could you possibly derive from such a thing?

*
*

Members of the N54 Jury, and my fellow Americans.
Allow me to go to the MEAT of his happy double talk, and blow his BS out of the water.

Lord Jeff speaks:

"XXXX's CRIME, people who buy drugs usually have a brain and the willpower to say no!

*
*

Let me break this to Lord Jeff gently...........

If an addict had the willpower that the no clue Lord Jeff speaks of ... HE WOULDN'T BE AN ADDICT!
This guy doesn't know sh!t of what he speaks of.

Don't look now ..... but I think West Coast Peter C is passing you.

TO ALL THE HOLIER THAN THOU.
Let's talk about Boxing.

Entertaining, bloody and sometimes deadly.

Are Americans Barbaric???

[Archive]

Posted By: quan

wes "...I am still having chicken fajitas at the N54 dinner."

once again wes have the best quote in another pointless* thread.



*by pointless i mean it's gonna bring in massive page hits.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Is it possible to make points in a pointless thread?

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

From Joe's post above:

"Lord Jeff speaks:

"XXXX's CRIME, people who buy drugs usually have a brain and the willpower to say no!

Let me break this to Lord Jeff gently...........

If an addict had the willpower that the no clue Lord Jeff speaks of ... HE WOULDN'T BE AN ADDICT!
This guy doesn't know sh!t of what he speaks of."



Joe - Im pretty sure that Jeff can defend himself, but as I see it, you are totally wrong. First, all addicts at one time or another chose to use drugs for the first time. At that point, nothing impaired their will. Second, not all drugs are addictive. Finally, even addicts sometimes choose another path and finally say no - if this were not the case, rehab centers would not be so commonplace in our society. So, in my humble opinion, youve written nothing that would "blow Jeff out of the water."

[Archive]

Posted By: Dave F

That was Joe's attempt to keep this thread alive for another 150 posts...

[Archive]

Posted By: jeffdrum

Surely you're not advocating personal responsibility. ....The devil made me do it..........

edeted fur poor spellin'...........sorry Barry

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Hey, Joe,
What percentage, would you say, of people who buy and use illegal drugs are in fact addicts? I would contend that the great majority aren't and thus DO have the willpower to make the decision to use or not to use.

Can you make the distinction between addict and "recreational" user?

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Jeff - of course not. There is absolutely no place in this society for personal responsibility.

BTW Joe - I hear serial killers are addicted to killing. Guess they get a pass as well.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jay

Thought this was interesting

[Archive]

Posted By: jeffdrum

With apologies to Mr. Boblitt, there are several good Kentucky jokes there!

edited for proper syntax and verb

[Archive]

Posted By: Tom Boblitt

You graced the bluegrassed confines for a few years too!

Lots of cockfightin' in Eastern Kentucky I'd say.....close to Scott. I'm sure it's a venerable sport up there too in the barns and hollers like it probably is in Virginia. Guess they don't worry about building any cockfight domes or anything in the mainstream society. No corporate suites either probably. Haven't seen any competitors on any Nike ads yet either.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I was just checking the law books and I noticed that addiction was not an affirmative defense to the crime of drug possession. Perhaps if someone was holding a gun to one's head and forcing them to purchase drugs that might be a defense. However, I don't think anyone had a gun to Scott's head when he was putting two roosters into a ring and drooling in happiness as they ripped each other to bits.

Time for a nap, ok?

[Archive]

Posted By: chris bland

I never post on off topic threads, but what the hell. Here is my contribution - its better with the sound on...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUj5BKMGIuk

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

I always get a chuckle out of the people that think they can belittle me, Scott and the others that contribute to the other board by saying that there is no activity there. These same people are new to this board and have no clue what the true history of this board is. If you think it's been this active since day one, then you truly are clueless.

I joined the FC/net54 board at about it's one year point. I checked the board once, maybe twice a day because there just wasn't that much traffic there to warrant looking at it more often. The new board may only have 105 registered members, but about twice that many lurk. You can read the board without having to register.

If you look at the activity on this board, most it involves OT talk and what needs to be done about Sean or some other non-card related issue. Any topics of real substances about vintage cards and the hobby end up getting shunted off the front page by things like this. At least over there, you don't have to filter your way through a bunch of garbage threads to find the stuff that will interest you.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: P Spaeth

Who were the best pre-war cockfighters?

[Archive]

Posted By: Mark

Jeff, would you represent/defend someone who ran a cockfighting business?

[Archive]

Posted By: Bottom of the Ninth

Who were the best pre-war cockfighters?

Isn't that the subject to the sequel to The Marinolli Treasure?

[Archive]

Posted By: JK

Ty Cock was the greatest who ever lived - sorry couldnt resist.

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Josh, you've been waiting all thread to get that out, haven't you?

[Archive]

Posted By: barrysloate

Jay- while there is no denying that this board has its share of O/T posts, how can you say most threads of substance, that is card discussion, get pushed to the bottom and are ignored? You know that isn't true, so why even say it?

[Archive]

Posted By: Ed

Babe Ruthter

[Archive]

Posted By: P Spaeth

I was about to post as a joke are the cocks on steroids, but apparently (at least according to this undoubtedly PC site) some of them ARE!!

http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/cockfighting_fact_sheet/>

EDITED TO ADD EXCERPT

Aren't these birds natural fighters?

While it is true that birds will fight over food, territory, or mates, such fights are generally only to establish dominance within a group (the pecking order) and seldom result in serious injury. This natural behavior is quite different from what happens in staged cockfights, where pairs of birds, bred for maximum aggressiveness (and sometimes given steroids or other drugs to make them more successful fighters) are forced to fight until a winner is declared.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

This board has become more of a social club than an actual place to discuss vintage cards. A while back Leon asked that OT posts stop for awhile. Thy did, but it didn't take long for things to digress right back to it's old state. Most attempts at any serious discussion end up getting shouted down by various people with agendas. God forbid anyone say anything bad about Mastro on here. If you do, get ready to ganged up on big time.

Look at Sean's return. He asks a few questions and instead of answering his questions people feel the need to berate and belittle a 12 year old kid for asking questions that any normal 12 year old would. I was 16 when I found the first Beckett annual. The thing that caught my attention was the price of 1972 Topps Carew. It was the value of the cards that got me to return to my childhood hobby, not an altruistic desire to collect for the sake of collecting. I'm thankful for people like Mark Macrae, Bill Bossert, Dick Dobbins and others that took the time to teach me about cards even though I may have seemed annoying to them. Once he gets past the $$$ stage, he'll start asking other questions that won't involved value.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jay, I apologize for the low blow regarding your message board...it was directed at Scott and not you, but I still shouldn't have said it especially considering I post to the memorabilia board which probably gets less traffic than your board. I doubt you will get many more converts over to your board though with revelations that Scott is cruel to animals and the continued harassing of Leon over advertising.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Well, I told you to be patient...we have now covered all the points that you mentioned earlier.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Uh oh, Peter. You mean the birds don't enjoy killing each other while hopped up on 'roids? Scott? Scott? Scott!

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jay, you should be the last one to talk about not answering Sean's questions...when I first got to this site if someone asked a question you were invariably the first to always jump in to tell that someone to "Learn how to use the search function".

[Archive]

Posted By: P Spaeth

I didn't think the steroid connection would be THIS easy. As I said I was about to post it as a joke, then figured I would run a google search just in case.... and lo and behold.... Unbelievable, isn't it?

By the way, it is easy to defend a particular practice by pointing out something else that is logically equivalent but that the critic doesn't mind. And then accusing the critic of hypocrisy. But that use of the Socratic method is really a logician's trick and not a defense of the practice on the merits, in my opinion. Therefore, the "you condone hunting, therefore you are a hypocrite for attacking cockfighting" line of reasoning really doesn't speak to the merits of why cockfighting should be OK.

[Archive]

Posted By: P Spaeth

Oops double post sorry.

[Archive]

Posted By: anthony

jay, i've seen that "advertisement" on the front door of a brothel in pahrump, nevada.


***no, i've never been to a brothel***

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

A different time, and possibly a different background.
This is not from books, not from stats, it's strictly from life's experience.
I'm talking about the the late 1930's, early forties, up to 1945.
My pre teens, early teens during the second world war years, living in Spanish Harlem, Manhattan NYC.
I was surrounded by a lot of fine good people, but within the envirement, there was also the element of street gangs, gang wars, zip guns and drugs.
If you did not grow up in a large inner city, you will not know WTF I'm talking about.
Competing in those days was a training field that gave me all the background that I'd need in later life.
Whether it was in stickball, I was so bad, with two left feet, that they would prefer to trade me for a stickball bat, and a spauldeen, when it came up to choosing a team.
Some of those guys were great natural athletes, whereas I really had to work at it.
The sad part is that some of them got killed or wounded in gang wars, while I was the only one from that group to later on go for a football scholarship.
The hard part was the peer pressure, and the hardest part of the peer pressure, was going against it.
Gangs of every kind were all over the place.
A group of my peers joined a gang 8 blocks away, not knowing that in a short time, that gang would declared war on the gang that lived on their block.
They had to sneak home over roof tops, or whatever.
One of them, was killed by a sniper as he sneaked into his apartment house during the night.
He was a former schoolmate of mine in grammer school.

Although I didn't do gangs or drugs, I definitely needed to change the scenario.
That means no gangs ... no drugs ... a different group of friends and ideas.

In other words, how to make friends, and influence people.
To say that my peers looked down upon me, and were not happy with me ... Is an understatement.

The change turned out to be easier than expected, new classmates from Junior High school, in the middle of an oasis just 3 blocks from where I lived.
NYC is an amazing place.

Now this, depending in what circles Mr Jeffery Lichtman travels ... he might find this interesting.

I eventually got to play some football for a local team called the Eagles, the N.Y. Eagles.
That team was made up of NYC.
I mean every possible kind of diversity.
The good the bad, and everything else of every gang, religion, color or crede. ... We were one Team..........
To give you just one small example.
In one game, we had this sub come in for one play.
He wasn't very tall, and he came in to replace the quarterback.
He threw me the prettiest touchdown pass that you would ever want to see.
A few years later, he had to serve some time because he shot a very disagreeable person.

To show you the other side of the coin, and this is the part that Jeffery may, or may not recognize.

We had halfback that was fast and shifty, and light on his feet.
His name was Eddie Torres, better known now as Judge Edwin Torres.

Now for those of you that may not be familiar with Judge Torres, asides from being a noted Judge, he wrote a few books.
One of them was "Q & A", that was made into a movie with Nick Nolte, and I believe Armand Assante.

He also wrote "After Hours" AKA Carlito's Way with Pacino.

Let me take a brake.

OK Mr J Krasner, being that you said I was all wrong, let's hear a little about your background, and experience?

Joe Pelaez....................

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh

And now, Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy.....

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Joe, I know Judge Torres. He's a great guy; one of my favorite stories as a lawyer was an exchange I had with him in an off-the record discussion about a case I was about to enter. That being said, I'm pretty sure he doesn't agree with you on the issue of addicts being given free passes on narcotics cases.

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Joe,

That was a fascinating story...so are you telling us that sports helped you out of the slums?

Addiction is a tough problem...once a person thinks of himself as an addict...it is all over because he has all the excuses in the world after that.

Peter

[Archive]

Posted By: Al C.risafulli

There is, most definitely, a full moon in message board land.

-Al

[Archive]

Posted By: peter chao

Al,

Normally, we don't have this type of thread until the end of the month...the full moon came out early this month.

Peter C.

[Archive]

Posted By: Joe Pelaez

"addicts being given free passes on narcotics cases."

*
*

Jeff, I didn't say that, I didn't say that at all.

Let's go back to the play book, and then we'll get back to Eddie Torres.

Either I misinterpret what you said, or you me.

My response was directed at a comparison that you used with Scott.

If I misread you, I apologize, but if I didn't, I want to make sure that you get my point straight.

The above statement, was definitely not in my thinking.
Anyone that knows me, would know that.
Let me check the thread.

OK, I found exhibit A.
Now you know that I'm not a fanatico of cock fighting, and you ussed this as a comparison to it.

Jeff, you stated:
"And at least with Leon's crime people who buy drugs usually have a brain and the willpower to say no."
Jeff, what you say about willpower , is somewhat true, but once the junkie is hooked, you can forget about the willpower to say NO.
That's when serious rehab hopefully comes into play.

Jeff, the way you said it, and I know you didn't mean it that way, it almost sounded like, pushing junk is a victimless crime.

During the time that Eddie and I were exposed to that problem, people from outside of El Barrio, didn't really care about it.
It wasn't happenning to them, but now, every Grosse Pointe affluent area of this contry, is concerned about the problem.

No ... PUSHING is not a victimless crime, and they deserve whatever they get.

I want to ask a couple of questions about Eddie, but I have to take a break.

Later..............

Joe

[Archive]

Posted By: John S

[Archive]

Posted By: leon

You are exactly correct. Edited to say everyone should learn from their mistakes and try to help others less fortunate, when they can...regards

[Archive]

Posted By: Brent Butcher

Leon, you are still addicted but to little spaure pieces of cardbourd now. I say that's a pretty damn good trade off!

[Archive]

Posted By: Scott Elkins

with some common sense who are not willing to attack me b/c of what I do. Hell, I may be a cockfighter, but at least I am not an attorney!

Anyway, while wading through all this, I noticed a bloody picture Jeff was happy to point out. I am glad he did, as this proves soundly what I am saying! Thanks Jeff! If you will look at the roosters' legs carefully in that picture, you will notice that the rooster do NOT have the steel spurs on their legs used in cockfighting. These are two roosters who had fought naturally. Let me agree with everyone that this IS a bloody sight! So, a lot of you would rather see the chickens left to do this to one another naturally and be this bloody than to have a much more humane fight with steel spurs on - right? To be honest, I have NEVER seen two roosters with as much blood on them in an organized cockfight than the picture Jeff displayed of the two fighting naturally.

As to the steroid issue. Yes, some people give their chickens steroids. Jeff claims they do not want to fight until they are given steroids and made to fight. This is more BS from someone, along with Dan B., who are making less sense with each statement they make. So, Barry Bonds would not want to play Baseball unless steroids made him want to? So, Football players, Boxers, Wreslters, Ultimate Fighters, etc. would not want to beat each other more bloody than any rooster from a fight b/c steroids make them want to do this? Huh, Jeff? If you are so against steroids, you should probably start in the sports they are most prevalent - Baseball and Wrestling - NOT cockfighting. Of course, Jeff will not listen. He will simply throw something ludicrous in my face and dodge the question, like a lot of attorneys would (again, I know this as I have several friends who are attorneys - beat them in a game of pool and they have 5000+ excuses why they really won).

I have actually, except for Barry's statement (I would expect him to defend anyone saying anything negative against Leon however), seen that more and more people in this thread seem to have seen through Jeff and Dan B.'s BS. That is good, as all of you on Net 54 are not brainwashed by Leon and his "clique" yet. It is also funny people like to attack me for attacking Leon - and I didn't attack Leon, but was proving a point after being attacked by this Net 54 "clique".

Jay is also correct - a lot of the names of individuals here I have not seen in the past on the old boards. You people have NO idea of the origins of Net 54 and how Leon took it over with $$$ in his eyes! This use to be the best board in the world for talking vintage cards. Now, it is simply nothing more than a clique of people following Leon who are willing to attack anyone who sees the Hobby, Mastro, Leon, or even the world differently than they do. You people need to learn that America is a melting pot, whether you like it or not. There are people with different skin colors, backgrounds, heritages, etc. than you - YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, AND THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS WRONG B/C YOU DON'T AGREE WITH HOW THEY LOOK, WHAT THEY DO, THEIR BACKGROUNDS, ETC.!

[Archive]

Posted By: Josh

How's we get from cockfighting to attorney bashing?! No need to get mean now!!

And I agree with Leon, as long as we can learn from our mistakes, and help others, it's a positive.


Go Go White Sox
2005 World Series Champions!

[Archive]

Posted By: judson hamlin

That was not a transformer explosion near grand Central - that was Jeff's head exploding

Hi Jeff - looks like Tacopina's star witness was a fruitcake (and probable poster here)

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Scott, you used a whole lot of words just to say "I abuse animals".

I'll also note that you couldn't point out anywhere where I accuse you of attacking Leon. You can use your next post to apologize and retract the "Pot, Kettle, Black" statement you made against me.

Thanks.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

" humane fight with steel spurs on " Now that has to be the most pathetic statement yet. If you can't see the ridiculousness of that comment, there's no hope.

Oh, and Scott, since you've been lauded for your alleged "honesty" and "legal" behavior by your apologists in this forum (and by yourself, come to think of it), tell me: have you ever bet on a cockfight in the state of Virginia?

[Archive]

Posted By: Jeff Lichtman

Scott, it's not fancy lawyerimg to criticize someone who abuses animals and then is too dumb to hide in the shadows about it. It's called common sense. Do you realize you wrote that it is appropriate for roosters to wear steel spurs to kill each other with?

You're a grotesque oddity; you should be playing the banjo in Deliverance not moving amongst normal people.

Now is Roy Jones, Jr. going to come to my home and kick my ass?

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Dan, yes, I used to be one of the first people to tell new comers to learn to use the search function. You never saw me knowingly treat a 12 year old the way some of the people around here treat Sean knowing full well he is only 12. I'm willing to cut him slack because he is learning and probably doesn't have all the social skills that he eventually have when he gets older.

I treat young kids differently than I do adults. Kids are learning and they get a lot more slack than I give an adult. If you are here for the first time, it's pretty hard to miss the link for the forum rules and search function. You see them before you see the post now link.

Coming to the board and posting without making use of these two things is inexcusable, unless you are a kid. Most people are lazy and don't want to take the time to read the FAQ or use the search function. Sad but true.

I just hope you guys that are bashing Sean never have kids that are treated the way you've treated Sean. You should be ashamed of yourselves and apologizing. I'm sure you'd be expecting the same if someone treated your kids that way.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

[Archive]

Posted By: Bob Pomilla

Roy Jones Jr. hasn't kicked anyone's ass lately. Except maybe his losing animals (see Micheal Vick).

[Archive]

Posted By: Dan Bretta

Jay, fair enough, but I don't remember you asking the age of anyone before telling them to use the search function.

And for the record I am among those that feel Sean was treated poorly his first go around here.

[Archive]

Posted By: jay behrens

Notice, I said I didn't knowingly treat any kid that way. Zach was a young pup when first appeared here and I was more than happy to answer any all questions he had. We need to nurture the kids that are interested in the hobby, not run them off. For those that are worried about the value of their collection, if you run off the kids, then you aren't going to have many people around wanting to buy your cards when you decide to sell.

Jay

I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.